Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Manipulation v. Genuine Need/Feelings of Sadness

Hi folks, I know I've posted a few times about ds9 having been diagnosed with depression, but I am having questions about approach, etc. Not sure if there are many people here with experience on that, especially with 7-10 year old kids, but here goes. I wonder how much of this is normal gifted 9 year old drama.

1. the reactions ds has always had to disappointments vary from getting ok with something quickly to really off the charts crushed. This has been going on since forever.
Last nights example: I asked him to wrap up tv, brush teeth and go to bed and I'd see him in about 20 minutes to tuck in/read a bit if he wanted out of his book he's reading. 10 minutes into my reading to his sis, he isn't doing any one of those things, so I came out, explained again, he started to argue, I told him it was time and turned off the tv. He stormed off, and grumped around for a few minutes. This went on for a while so I tried to do as the social worker had suggested, get him to write down his feeling(s), write about mine at that moment. Of course all he could write was that he hated me a million times. That's a good feeling. Anyhow, part of the feelings were admittedly coming from having his tv show cut short. He also pointed to a more actually unfair thing I'd done earlier, which I admitted was a mistake on my part. I thought we were getting somewhere, but he just remained grumpy.
Finally I started by giving hugs, chatting some more, and getting his book. When I asked if he wanted me to read to him, he completely relaxed and I joked 'Is that all you really wanted?' He laughed pretty good but tried to hide his face in this pile of pillows, but basically 'came around'.
So - could this be considered being manipulated to give up reading to dd3 and just start whatever he wants at the moment/never interrupt him?
The Social Worker I mentioned is working with him on social skills training, which I think is a great class and has been helpful for all of us.
2. It was suggested to us that the main reason for his depression was social isolation/negative feelings associated with failing to make as many friends/as good friends as he'd like.
Since trying the social skills training/getting him involved with cub scouts, getting more pro-active about helping him build friendships, camps, etc. this summer, there has certainly been improvement in the friends department, and I don't think he feels so out of place. He seemed really in-place during his cub scout camp/happy, able to handle disappointments pretty well.
Over this last weekend and like last night, it seems like that ability to roll with things has been lost a bit, or goes back and forth.

We are supposed to have a brief recap with the SW after the class ends in a couple of weeks, at that time they'll give feedback and suggest a course of action. I am trying to order my thoughts on whether the progress seen so far is good enough to warrant stopping, or so good we should continue, or, in the department of 'resiliency', whether we need to address things in a different manner altogether.
One thing that concerns me about continuing is the amount of time/repetition that might be involved - it's 30+ weeks 1x/week 'class', and I think ds would go from seeing it as a positive experience to a drudgery.

Thoughts/suggestions, especially on the resiliency question would be greatly appreciated! thanks

All I have is comments. Hopefully someone who knows more will help.:)

I have noticed that my 6 and 7 year olds, while immature in some ways, seem to be going through teenage angst right now. They struggle with who they are at times, and they get angry over mild things. Sometimes we can find ways around it, sometimes not.

I think that what you are talking about, isolation leading to depression, is probably fairly common in gifted children. I know that I ended up that way when I was younger, and there is plenty of literature out there that supports it. How to deal with it, though, is beyond my abilities. I will be reading this thread with interest.

Lya

Chris, I'll try to get back later, when I can write more. GS10 reacts very similarly to what you described. GS10 is an extreme extrovert, about as opposite as possible from me. I have to make sure he gets recharged often, or he gets stressed much in the same way I get stressed from being around people too much. GS10 will manipulate people, more on that later.

hi chris
we've had experience with this type of thing first hand with my DS7. He would have these extreme outbursts with anything negative. If we asked him how his day at school went, it was bad, bad, bad. Baseball was a nightmare-every out was either crying or storming around. This went on since he was about 4.. Finally I called the school psychologist and she said that she had observed Zachary many times at school handling disappointments appropriately. When I told her we were looking at possibly getting him diagnosed with depression she said it just didn't fit. She felt it was manipulation and she used the following word which made me really listen "PROVOCATIVE".. he is being more and more provocative.. **We were also doing the whole thing where he wrote about his feelings, etc etc. this would go on for a long long time. She told us to stop this immediately..She suggested the following, which is how they had been dealing with him at school with great success:

1)Don't ask the question he is expecting when he gets off the bus (or whenever)="How was school?"..

2) Create a catch phrase that signals you're not going to become engaged. We say "thanks for telling me, lets move on"..

2) In sports/activity situations, avoid letting him see you are watching. We always sat where he could see us in the dugout.. This year we switched to the bleachers (with everyone else) and the behavior stopped when he realized we weren't watching, and the coach was not going to become "engaged" like we had.


These methods worked brilliantly, but we did see an "extinction burst" the first day or so..When i didn't ask "how was your day" you could tell he was really thrown and kept following me around and blurting out stuff. I just said "thanks for telling me, lets move on".. We were warned about this and were really excited when it happened. Then success.

I wish you luck, this can be really difficult.


irene

Wow! very interesting...

Artana, teen angst definitely rings a bell here...seems so odd to think about that for a 9 year old!!!

Renie - interesting ideas...lots to think about!!

Ohgrandma, I have lately considered ds an introvert, but after seeing him in light of some of this social skills training, where he is 'hogging the show' as they put it in his social interactions, and at camp where he is more than willing, almost driven to be the center of a kickball game, or other activity...I gotta wonder. (Starved extrovert??)
Very interested to hear more.

thanks all!

Reversed roles here, the school counselor was having him do this! I pulled him out of that situation and his behavior at school improved. I repeatedly tell people who have trouble with him, "do not engage". Unfortunately, I think some people get sucked in without knowing they're perpetuating the problem. His scout leaders have some problems knowing how to handle him, I think I'm going to give them instructions to say, "hold that thought and take it to grandma, right now we are doing x, y, or z".

Hi, thanks for all the opinions, I guess the main thing I'd be worried about is not 'engaging' if he really needs me to engage.

The social workers are all about letting the child feel his emotions, and accept them. 'Not engaging' seems to directly contradict that, maybe I am misunderstanding, though.
I do want ds to be able to say, 'today sucked', or 'I'm really really mad, because I'm embarrased/things are unfair, etc.', or whatever he needs to.
I do not want a child who is turning himself and the family inside out, 'feeling' sad because it gets him what he wants.

So, while we're working on finding that line, we've decided to try for a lot more exercise. We've just been taking it way too easy this summer (here and there, anyway), me included. He's back in camp this week for the next couple of weeks, dh and he had a big hike Sat., and I got everyone out on bikes Sun., so I'm trying to just keep this ball rolling. I could be wrong about how much this helps, but so far, a much more even keel around here.

hi chris
i understand your frustration and worry. My DS7 (the one who i talked about in a previous post) got to the point of saying he "wanted to die". that is when i called the school pyschologist and she told me about the dangers of over-engagement. Her opinion about my son was based on her observations of him in school vs. what i said about his behavior at home. She said that kids who are truly depressed will show signs across all settings. This is pretty much a common thread with any psychiatric diagnosis. At school he seemed to be having a ball, but when he got home it would be "The worst day of my life", etc.. So look for those signs.

Also, when it comes to not over-engaging, you don't ignore the child. Just change up the patterns. He is always welcome to bring up a topic. And if it seems true and valid, of course you need to explore it, but beware of "habitual" negative conversations such that happen at same time every day and seem to always go the same way, or get more and more provocative. If he is predicting your behavior, he is more likely to be manipulating you.

irene

It always seems a balancing act when you're raising children, any children!
Exercise is good for depressed people, it's good for happy people; so I'm not surprised it's helping.

If he says things like 'worse day ever' to get a response from you, try to understand what he wants and help him express it a bit more directly. If he just needs to reconnect with you physically after a tiring/exciting day at school he may be getting comfort & sympathy by playing the 'woe is me' card. Get him to understand what he wants and ask for it more directly. There's nothing wrong with needing, & asking for, a hug & kisses, a few minutes of undivided attention, milk & cookies to recharge. Btw, I'm still working on GS10 to do this better!

irene's got some good advice, too.

Here's are somethings I do to make things better.

Do Nature things (read The kids summer handbook)
Get lots of outside time
Get lots of exercise
Make a point of giving a big smile and tell you love him when you see him in the morning and after school and before bed.
Try to just play with each child at least 15 minutes every day. My kids seem to really want this. It doesn't seem to count that I watched them play soccer for a hour.
Hope it's helpful.