Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment DYS app question and ceiling effects

Hello, all,
I have worked to make this coherent and short, I hope I do well!
I am thrilled to see that you all are more well versed regarding these issues than I am. I thought I knew a thing or two about gifted kids and testing and then I found you all! Wow.

I would like to apply to DYS for my children.
Kid #1)
Weschler IV - had a verbal score of 152, but overall IQ was just 141.

Kid #2)
WPPSI had an overall of 146, yet they want 150. The 146 is actually in the 99.9th percentile, too.

Both exhibit the signs of HG kids and I have been struggling alone to find them challenges and good placements. I would love the aid of DYS! I have an appt soon to get them tested in the achievement area, older will use the WJ achievement, younger (she is 5) the WIAT. I can put together a good portfolio, I think. I am a little nervous that the achievement won't match the IQ.

Any advice so far? Do these scores qualify them so far?
Lastly, I have read quite a bit about ceiling effects and these Weschler tests. Both kids hit several sub test ceilings, but here in suburbia, not at all a metropolitan area, school psychologists don't understand why I am inquiring about further IQ testing using the SB V. Does this seem like folly to you, that I am interested in further IQ testing? I thought that the ceiling effect was real, not just a ploy to test further.

Thanks so much to you all,
Elizabeth

Short posts are overrated! (So are coherent ones, sometimes! LOL!)

Welcome!

My take: the older child looks good so far. FSIQ is not required to be admitted to DYS.

The younger is more iffy. From what I've seen, the committee doesn't generally take kids just age 5 who have WPPSI scores that don't quite qualify. I don't know for sure what they'll do, obviously, but if you're asking for predictions, I'd predict no, not yet, based on that score.

You can look into extended scoring with those ceilings (Does the WPPSI have those, Dottie?), you can retest, or you can try with what you've got and hope it's enough.

On the bright side, even if your younger daughter didn't get into DYS at all (and I suspect she will eventually ...) many families find that getting one child into DYS is really very helpful, and a lot of the benefits carry over to the second child. What you learn and the people you meet all help the second child, too.

Here's wishing good things for you and your kids!

Dottie is wonderful. Thanks for sharing your stories on DD3.

emom,

Dottie is our resident test results guru.... I agree with Kriston that the younger ones score seems a little iffy. On the other hand is the achievement scores are high and you have a good portfolio, who's to say? If you are planning on retesting, you might consider waiting to submit the application until you have those scores in your hand.

Either way, Welcome aboard!

I feel like I was pulled into the sunlight...thank you all for your replies, especially the wondrous "Dottie". That is really helpful information.

A final story (for now): I went to the principal when my oldest was in K to seek help, the teacher had thrown up her hands and said that she didn't know what to do with my daughter. The principal listened to my concerns and then yelled at me: "You think this is a PROBLEM? Lady, I have kids here who are behind and have real problems! This is not a problem." Needless to say, it was not a good year and no one helped us. We would have switched schools but knew we were moving to another state soon and didn't want change after change, especially since she had made friends.

Hi elizabethmom --

My ds6 took the WPPSI at 5y5m, with a WPPSI full-scale of 148 and slightly lower VIQ and PIQ scores. He hit ceilings on 7 subtests, and I hoped the DYS people would consider possible ceiling effects. His achievement scores were well over their cut-offs (yes, achievement scores aren't as telling with younger children). We got the "need more information" letter when we submitted those scores.

DS was admitted after I sent a pretty strong portfolio, so it can be done, but in ds's situation they didn't look at possible ceiling effects. To pull off higher than 150 with ceiling effects, I think the child would need to have a pretty high PSIQ in addition to the high "ceilinged" scores -- thoughts on that, Dottie? Does that even make sense?

Anyway, elizabethmom! Your dd1 has scores that *are* over DYS cut-offs (that 152 is impressive), so if you want to wait on achievement testing you could try applying with her VIQ and a portfolio. The "Application Process" page says:


http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...Scholars____Application_Process_380.aspx

So a good portfolio might be all dd1 needs. They'll ask for more info if they want it. I'd bet they'll ask for more testing for your dd2, but you could try it.

As for wanting to test with higher ceilings ... yes! For my situation, we have no reason to test other than pure curiosity, so we're not pursuing it. Personally I think ds6's WPPSI score isn't very far off the mark. He *might* have picked up a few points, but I don't think all that many, on a test with a higher ceiling. And since he doesn't need another score for DYS, we've got no reason to retest. TBH, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he scored a bit lower on a WISC, which is right in line with DYS requirements.

That said, if we had to have him tested with a WISC or SB5 for some program or something, I can't say I'd be disappointed! I would probably have invented a reason to retest at some point to try for DYS scores. I'm curious; I'm a numbers person!

Thanks, Mia. That is helpful, too. I am a numbers person as well, but don't want to seem too crazy or spend too much money if it isn't necessary. My worry about relying on a portfolio for dd1 is that I don't know what to send in. I have looked at some of her recent work around the house and schoolwork, but have a hard time knowing if it is earth shattering. She hasn't written the "great American novel" yet. I would like to get both on CD talking the way they do in a quiet moment to me, but might need the dog to secretly hold the camera or something!

Most kids that age haven't cured cancer or written a novel yet, no matter how GT they are. No worries there.

I'll give you my standard recommendations: think about what she's doing in those times when you find yourself raising an eyebrow and thinking, "Wow. That's not normal, right?" If you can, get some video of her in these times, preferably attaching whatever she was working on at the time (math sheet, writing, science questions, imaginative play, building project, etc.). This gives them a LOT of information about your child's abilities. I really think that if you see an HG+ child in action, you know it.

Also, whatever you send, I recommend that you keep in mind that it needs to show not only that your child is GT or MG, but that she is HG+. They're not looking for MG. You'd like to show that she's working at least 3 grades above level, I think.

Best wishes!

Thanks Kristin and Dottie.

Dottie gave some great specifics on the WJ, but the school psychologist was going to use the WIAT for my DD 5 y.o. Is this also a test that can offer, as you put it, "crazy highs"? Is this also a good achievement test to use for this age group?