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DS6 becomes perfectionistic when every paper he gets back, without him putting in any effort, has a smiley and a comment such as "brilliant!" or "Perfect!". He is hesitant to take risks and do harder work because he would "blow his cover" and reveal himself as not being brilliant. So he declines that optional extra enrichment sheet in school. I recently met the mom of a gifted 7th grader who said she cheered when her son finally failed his first test!

I think this is very wise - I'll definitely pay attention to this!

Wow, it was hard to make myself read the entire thread before posting. This is exactly where we have been with DD8, and I only realized this past year that I had/have the same issues. So, where to start...

Jen74: we also moved to this district because of the 'fantastic' school system here. We did not realize DD8 was gifted (yes, I have apparently been in denial my entire life); therefore, we didn't even ask about gifted programming (read: I'm a terrible mom). DD8 had a great time in Kindy - she now tells us that it's because that is where she really "discovered her love affair with legos" (seriously, those are her words). That teacher warned us that she would have trouble with some teachers, but that she is very bright (did not mentioned the term "gifted").

First grade was a train wreck. Teacher did not appreciate DD8 at all. She was tested for gifted program, but did not get in. Our gifted ID starts with achievement tests in math, science, social studies, language arts and reading. To qualify, you have to get above 96%ile in 3/5 of them. Because I insisted that our kids "have a childhood", we basically held her back during pre-school time, so of course she didn't do well enough on the achievement tests (read: yes, I'm a terrible mom). And we didn't push it because we trusted this 'fantastic' school system's judgement!! Her first grade teacher told us throughout the year that DD should be in the gifted program (DD had been telling her she was bored), but that "until she is able to complete her work in the classroom, she cannot recommend her for gifted again". We didn't push it because it would only get her 2 hours in a pullout program (again, bad mom...). Finally after a blue ribbon in the science fair that was clearly her own work, they tested her again and she blew it out of the water!

I thought first grade was rough until 2nd grade came along. That's when DD started refusing to do the work and telling teacher she hated her. The school started 'unofficially' suggesting ADHD or bipolar disorder. Luckily the gifted teacher looked back at those achievement test scores and the reasoning and creativity test scores and said "hmmm, maybe we should do an IQ test?" I, very confused, said "but she's already in gifted - how will that help?" That was the first I'd heard of LOG (stupid mom!).

I've always told people that you can't just rely on doctors to take care of you - you have to do your own research and take charge of your own health. So why didn't I do the same for her (or my for that matter) brain's health? (the worst mom ever-LOL).

Before I continue, I should mention that I'm known as an eternal optimist. However, while I kind of believe that some HG kids do fine in the ND classroom of a 'fantastic' school, I also believe that even that is likely an illusion. The kids that DD really relates to are in gifted with her, but their parents think all is well. However, from what I've read if those kids are also HG (and I believe they are), it's only a matter of time...

Kriston - thanks for being so open and honest. I am a perfectionist as well and did great all through school - that is until college when I didn't walk in knowing everything (it was only a matter of time). As you could tell from my comments in parens, I STILL beat myself up when I think I could have or should have done more or known more, etc. So yes, I'm thrilled that DD is "a behavior problem" so she will be better off than I am.

It is wonderful Jen74 that you are so ahead of the game. Whatever you decide for her school right now, continue to stay on top of things. As others have said - look for signs of stress. My DD was having stomache aches at bedtime. Then she started showing anxiety with habits like biting nails, fiddling with her fingers, etc. I was a knuckle popper - OK, I admit that I still am sometimes :-) With DD, they all disappeared for a few months when the school made extra accommodations for her.

Talk to her about her fears, etc. DD8 told me 2 nights ago that she has been noticing her anxious habits when she is "afraid of failing, of getting things wrong"; I don't think she would have figured that out if I hadn't noticed they were back (already?!) and made her aware of them and suggested that she try to find out what triggers them so she can fix the real problem. Also watch for bullies (the American Girl movie about Chrissy really helped with that issue by the way). And whatever decisions you make, don't expect them to even work for a whole school year. Remind yourself that your 'mistakes' are helping future kids, so they are really successes! (yes, I know I sound hypocritical, but I'm really trying to practice what I preach)

I hope this helps - if you even made it to the end of this LONG post!

I am convinced that learning to fail, and to recover from it, and even to become better because of it, is one of the most important lessons we can teach our children. First of all, no great discoveries are made without lots and lots of failures. If our kids are ever to do the great things they are all capable of it will only be because they manage to respond to these failures creatively and with enthusiasm. But even more importantly, no life is lived without failures. The person who can't confront them, and even relish them, becomes very brittle indeed.

My story is like Kriston's but even more absurd. I wasn't confronted with my suicidal moment until I was already in my second or third year of graduate school (my undergraduate and graduate work was compressed, so it's hard to know how to count it). My failure to achieve an absurdly prestigious scholarship nearly drove me over the edge. It was a completely ridiculous reaction, and it would have been funny if it wasn't so serious. It took me the rest of my years in graduate school to learn to deal with it. I'm absolutely convinced, though, that whatever success I've had since then is due in much smaller proportion to my intelligence than to my ability to persevere in the face of failures, and the related ability to take risks that I otherwise wouldn't have imagined.

I don't know how, exactly, we teach this kind of lesson to our kids. But I'm convinced that it's one of the most important things they can learn.

I can only imagine your kids will benefit from your teaching them these values G3. I really think that playing chess with different levels of players has given both DS and DD some great life lessons, more than they will get in the classroom. In addition to learning to have fun even though they're losing a game, they found that there will always someone more skilled who can beat them. But they also learned that losing a game is the only way to improve their skills. I love that their coach tells that playing against stronger players is the best way to get better. DD(almost 5) now doesn't have a tantrum when DS6 beats her

I agree that the perfectionism discussion should be a separate thread, but I can't help jumping in here. My parents and teachers praised me for my smarts, maturity, and ability to draw from the time I started school. My mom threw a little party the day I got into the gifted program in the second grade and refused an offered gradeskip around that same time because she wanted to keep me at the very head of my class. I also remember winning every single contest I ever entered--coloring, drawing, poetry, book reading, science fair, you name it--while I was in elementary school, and I was selected to be on local public tv once or twice because of some class project I'd done. In retrospect, all of this assured me at a very early age that I was smart and talented (at certain things) and showed me a clear and easy path to winning praise and acceptance. Being not just smart but "the smartest" became my entire identity, and by junior high I was going to ridiculous lengths to make straight As (even wrote extra credit reports for gym!), while avoiding any activity that I hadn't already mastered. The thought of making mistakes in front of other people absolutely terrified me, making classes like gym, choir, debate and Spanish a painful nightmare for me. I never even attempted to learn an instrument, and I'm still not able to speak Spanish (for fear of making mistakes) despite years' worth of studying.

So, from my perspective, the more Bs and Cs on my son's report card the better! And he's not entering any contests unless there promises to be some real competition. I've even enrolled him in kindergarten a year early (to start next fall), hoping to keep perfection out of his reach, just in case he decides to aim for it.

This is so on the mark. Especially that last line: brittle is the perfect word for it. That's almost poetic! Yes!

Aw, shucks...

Yes. So many smart people just take what is handed to them. We've got a technical development project where the vendors keep trying to change the rules and keep coming up with objections and I have to constantly keep pushing people forward by asking what the issues are and then look for ways to solve or bypass issues. No one wants to run the risk of failure or when failure occurs, they don't want to dig in for specifics and find solutions - they just want to fall back on what works.

The attitude that we will dig in and make things work and find solutions is infectious, too. Once someone gets the knack of it, then it becomes a habit - you run into an obstacle and then automatically find a way around it.

This touches on another difference between Real Life (tm) and School.

In School, curriculum can be seen as historical knowledge handed down to generations. The age at which something was discovered is a clue as to how settled it is and how "ritualized" it is. ABC's are pretty old. The alphabet and arithmetic are 10000+ years old.

Geometry and History are 2000+ years old. Algebra and Literary Criticism are 500 years old.

Mechanics and Calculus are 300 years old.

And so on.

Its not until you get into Quantum Mechanics or CompuSci Or Genetics or Medicine that you get into the 20th century.

As a result, the knowledge is handed to kids and much if not all of the excercises are cut and dried with specific answers. Further, the instructors are plowing ground they have been over hundreds of times.

Where is the room for uncertainty and doubt? For incremental advancment to understanding?

We trade speed of advancement for effort of discovery - which is fine - but we lose the ability to press on and find out for ourselves.

Pressing on is a skill that has to be developed and it takes time to learn do this. A really smart kid who has never done this is totally unable to proceed where a less bright kid who has always struggled will succeed.

Perfectionism in the pursuit of canned activities - of ritualized rote learning - rather than struggling through something that requires time and effort with uncertainty and lots of false paths - is the real danger. The former type of perfectionism makes for a very brittle psyche.