Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion off topic...do you ever wish this or is it just me

It is most likely just me...but do you ever think about life before kids and almost morn that part of life? Don't get me wrong my daughter is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me...she is my whole world...but that is just it-she is my whole world. I miss being me! Do you ever miss the old days? In some ways I am disappointed in myself...I wanted 4 kids. I used to LOVE babies (growing up I had pictures of babies all over my room!). Now I know I only want 1 child and if dh can convince me otherwise it will be through adoption, and it will be adoption of a toddler not a baby.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Do you ever miss your old life? I feel very very guilty for missing it so much, but I can't help it (I've tried!).

It gets better as they get older. They become more independent and each year you get more of "yourself" back.

And the stuff you don't get back you reinvent!

My previous life seems pretty boring compared to the shenanigans my wee ones subject me to now!

The reason I started writing was because I was losing my mind and missing me. I needed something to think about that was all mine.

It may be time to find a project or hobby or job that is all yours, One. Not to mention some time to yourself to enjoy it. It can make a big difference in your outlook.

But you're definitely not alone in those feelings! {hugs}

Onesie,

That sounds like my life....Had one, hated pregnancy and have since adopted three!

thanks sorry, that was really a downer of a post! I like my life...I was just really tired this morning and when I don't get enough sleep everything seems horrible! lol

Anyhow, life is good! Thanks for replying!

Okay, girl, we could talk, because you have written just about everything on my mind.

Sometimes I catch myself saying or thinking, "If I just had one full week without the baby...!" and then I realize the horror of my thought. I, too, wanted 4 kids and we are going though adoption (first match fell through in December).

We weren't sure how we'd find the time and energy for a second whirling dervish who sucks every millesecond of time out of our lives, but seeing DD with little babies has made us realize she wants to help raise them. In some ways, we expect having a second whirling dervish would make our parenting lives easier. (Famous last words, right? lol) DD is a breeze around other people - it's impossible for me to single-handedly provide her all the input, stimulation and feedback she requires. DH and I agree she needs a family around her.

Lately I've been struggling with having an ideal life - which I have - and still feeling grumpy. It boils down to me not feeling I can acccomplish much, especially compared with things I used to do. There are so many productive, creative, organizational, and health related things I'd like to do that I have to constantly push back, back, back in my mind because raising DD is all-encompassing right now. After awhile that mental self-denial seems to bother me.

I wish we could get together for a playdate! Better yet, I wish we could get together for a spa day.

I think it is time for you to take some time for yourself. Schedule a spa day and leave DD with DH or call a girlfriend to go out with or just go window shopping or to a museum by yourself. I know it easier said than done. I hardly ever take time to myself and if I do it is usually for a hair appointment and then I rush home to the kiddo, but last Saturday I went off with a girlfriend to have lunch and a movie. It was nice and rejuvenated me.

And Seablue,

I am so sorry that the adoption fell through. I have my fingers crossed for you and your family.

Onsie,
You aren't weird.
Yes it does chage with time - I just dropped DS off for the evening and he'll be playing 'Friday Night Magic the Gathering' until I pick him up at 11pm. I'm still 'on call' but it is SO different.

I don't think you should wait! I think you should stratigize! Get more folks into your lives and get more alone time. I kept DS in daycare as little as possible - about half time - to age 3, then I said to myself - 'I give up! He has a lot more energy than I do! Let him use it up there!' and I started taking some time for me even though I was working part time.

How would you look at a mom who totally gave up her entire life chasing a special needs kid from the other side of the spectrum? 24/7?

Grinity

I have high hopes that things get better as they get older. I hear all about women crying as their babies grow up and I am rejoycing that my baby is not a baby anymore. Since she was born things have gotten 100% better and as she gets older is is continuing to get easier and easier. I look forward to her full time school days a lot, even though that means I will have to be back to work. Anyhow, I get how as she gets older things will be easier. She will have friends to play with and that will keep her entertained...instead of me being the entertainer! I will have a HUGE break when she is at school during the day. Maybe I will meet some other parents at her school when she goes. She will be able to help me with the housework, instead of whining until I finish it and play with her. I am seriously hoping she develops an imaginary friend!

Anyhow, I do have hope for the future. Unfortunately, dd is just so clingy and demanding still that there is not a lot I can change right now. I am really praying that she will like preschool in the Fall. That would be such a great break for me and since I will not be back to work while she is in preschool, it would be time just for me to do whatever I want!!!!

Thank you for the replies. Things really are fine...I am sure this is common enough. My mom had her first child when she was 21...so she doesn't know what she missed, in terms freedom during her adult life. I had my baby when I was 29, so I really know what I am missing! That's just life though...and I do love my baby more than anything, we are so blessed.

I love my son,and, more importantly, I like my son. If I didn't, it's hard to tell what would have become of us. Because...

...I hated being pregnant and I mostly hate all the things that come with being a mom, except the actual child. I hate cleaning stuff, especially other people's body parts. I hate putting things away. I hate making other people put things away. I hate being awakened in the night. I hate not being able to go to bed at a reasonable hour. I hate not sleeping in. I hate being interupted. I hate pretending that I care when a child goes on and on about something I don't care about. I hate carrying diaper bags. I hate hate hate dealing with car seats (especially in a strange car). I hate vomit. I hate having to remember when to give other people medicine. I hate getting to daycare and then realizing that my kid is too sick and then having to turn around and go home. I hate how other people look at me when they don't like how my child is behaving. I hate worrying that I am messing him up. I hate temper tantrums and time outs gone bad. I hate how much he "makes" me lose my temper.

And despite all this, my son has turned out OK (well, great actually). Go figure!

Feel better ?

Oh, so you see 'school' as the 'knight on a white horse coming over the hill to save you,' do you?
If you can find a school were she can spend significant amounts of time with mind-peers, then yes, but if you just 'send her' then chances are very low that things will get better. You have to set up the playdates NOW, make the friends NOW, start setting the timer for housework/playtime NOW. (Check out Flylady.net for tips on streaming housecleaning and Housefairy.org to help the little one get on board with 'care of the environment.')

BTW - you can encourage her to develop that imaginary friend by telling her about yours or that you heard another little girl had one, and what would that be like, playing 'let's pretend we have an imaginary friend.' I'm imagining trying this with my DS, and him looking at me like I'm C-R-A-Z-Y, but he's a very 'ground-ed in reality kind of guy.'

You have to find that other trusted adult that can spend time with her while you rest up. Do not expect going to school to solve your problems. Journal about what bugs you the most and start taking steps NOW. Even if the steps don't work. My Clingy baby just 'clang' tighter after spending all day being 'good' in a 'poor fit' environment.

Sorry about the cyber-faceslap, but I don't want you to coast and hope. I want you to plan and try. I will be here for you when you need to cry about how it isn't working and isn't enough and isn't fast enough. Mothering is slow, hard, work for some of us.

Now to press 'Send' and tremble that I didn't get this wrong...

Love and More Love,
Grinity

acs - so funny!

grinity - you've got it right, as far as i'm concerned. I had the same dream, oneisenough, of things magically getting better when school started. These little ones can suck the life out of you sometimes, can't they? That dream bubble burst when we found out DS was HG+ and we learned we would not be able to simply drop him off and pick him up. So, we spend a lot of time now planning for a decent school experience.

I agree with Grinity - start planning playdates now! As they get a bit older, kids will actually play together. Also, start planning regular time away with an adult friend or two.

And things are better - the tantrums are very rare, DS5's sense of humor is delightful, and the books we read together are so very much more interesting! (CS Lewis really was a fabulous writer, wasn't he?) And a lovely thing recently happened. DS5 started asking Daddy to bring him to bed a few months ago. So after 4.5 years of me doing the whole bedtime routine, now DH gets a turn!

Thank you all for the thoughtful posts.

acs: Yes, reading that did make me feel better! lol After reading that, it made me want to brainstorm everything I do like about being a mom...there is really a lot! I am glad to raed that other people feel the same way I do.

Grinity: I must admit, I read your post a few times and although I didn't quite feel a cyber-faceslap, it definitely made me think. I read all of the posts about how hard and tressful the school years are for a lot of parents on this forum, but I still have hope that it won't be like that for dd. I know I live in a bubble (dh constantly tells me this!), but I just think it will be ok for dd. First off, I know she is a smart cookie, but I don't think she is anywhere near the level of most of the kids talked about here. Her verbal skills are excellent, and she has other skills that shine too, but think she could enjoy school in a fairly regular program (ie without acceleration etc). I don't know. Even in a different program, she can still be very happy, thus giving me my stress-free break right?! I guess what it comes down to, is that I don't really see her schooling being very different from the average kid...and when I look at the parents of the average kid, they are enjoying the time their kids are in school. Ok, I know this is not making a lot of sense. I am having a hard time explaining what I mean.

Anyhow, I agree that having some things change now would, no doubt, be very helpful. I guess I just don't know where to start. Dd and I have participated in a lot of mom and tot programs...kindergym, art class, dance class, play groups. I suppose it is up to me to make the friends for my dd and then arrange playdates. I have one friend with a child and her baby is just 1 years old. Dd can not stand her. She cries the second they pull in to our driveway and then continues to cry for 20 minutes after they have arrived. I have no idea what is going on there as dd is not the generally the temper tantrum type. She just doesn't like the baby. Soooooo, other than that, there is her cousin (they are good friends) and that is it. So I need to try to meet some people that have kids that i think dd would get along with. I am shy (and a bit anti social!), so this is a big challenge for me, but I will work on it. I really hope that she makes some friends at preschool, but i have a feeling that the whole preschool thing is not going to fly this year...we shall see though.

wow, I am rambling and really going where with all of this!

I know from my posts it sound like I am complaning about everything, and that I can't stand parenthood. That is not at all the case. I have so much to be thankful for and although dd is definitely demanding, she is wonderful. I think there are just some major parts of my life that have changed and are pretty much stuck this way for a long time (if not for ever)...and sometimes that is hard to swallow and it gets to me, especially when i am tired! but life is good regardless.

Thank you all again! I am so lucky to have found this forum and I love reading all of your posts.

P.S. Grinity, thank you for the links, I will definitely check them out! And no need to tremble at all...I value your input a lot and really appreciate you...I'm sure you got it right! Thank you

To secure my status as official board grump, let me add that I also hate playdates, at least the kind where I have to stay and socialize with other parents. You saw the list of things I hate about parenting. I found that hanging out with other mothers just meant I had to sit around and talk about all the things I hated. So, until I could just drop a kid off at someone else's house, I tended to dread the play dates more than just hanging out at home.

Don't get me wrong, I have many many friends, but I met virutally none of them through parenting. I met them at college or through work or hobbies, etc.

What worked much better for me was finding something meaningful and completely different than parenting that I could do. (I was never into the spa thing, for me learning is the best recreation I could find) For me that meant hiring someone to teach me a foreign language. Sometimes DH would come home early to hang with DS during my lesson; sometimes I could plunk him in front of the TV. But you could also hire a high school student to spend time with your child while you pursue something that you love. You can be available if there is a problem.

I think DS gets a huge benefit from seeing me learn something new. I am always taking classes, studying, volunteering in addition to my career. I think it is excellent role modeling for him. he sees me demonstrating that learning is fun!

I thought I was the only one that can not stand the playdate and being anti-social myself find it hard to suggest such a thing. We have my one friend that I was friends with through school who has a child 2 months younger than mine, but even then it is like pulling teeth to do the play thing. We talk on the phone all the time but actually taking the time to get together and let the kids play ... I think it is easier to sign a bill into law! Also even with her when we are together with the kids the conversations become mediocre and not our usual in depth ones on the phone. Here is the sad/funny thing. DD has a girl in her dance class that will probably be in the same class with her in Kinder. because they live in the same neighborhood and I still can not bring myself to do the play date thing.

And ACS I love your honesty about the hates of motherhood. I am literally checking off your list with yep me too. I do have to admit that pregnancy was not bad for me. I loved it. My only problem was since I had had hip dysplasia as a baby when I was in my third trimester my hips became dislocated so every time I stood up or went upstairs it was painful. Other than that it was a great pregnancy but the delivery not the best.

I so love that my child is pretty independent and so encourage it because if she was clingy I would be up the creek without a paddle. I thank the heavens for that!

I am nothing if not honest!

I get tired of the hollow reverence our culture has of mothers. As long as we say what a special privilige it is to parent and what an honor it is to be a mother and we aren't honest about the many sacrifices we make and the very hard work we do, the culture is unlikely to take our work seriously. Yes being a mother is important work. It is also hard work. Raising children well is essential for the continuation of our country. As such, it deserves the support of the community and the country and the government etc. If we just say it's a special gift and we are honored to do it, we will likely not get the support we need.

I have worked 3 days a week since DS was born. I have a emotionally and intellectually challenging job that I get paid pretty well for and I am proud of the work I do. But honestly, I think parenting is harder and the society does not give me nearly as much support for it as it does for my paid job. KWIM?

Stepping down from the soap box now.

Oops, I have to get back up on the soapbox for a second.

If we are not honest about how much hard work parenting is, we create a culture of motherhood that does not support those mothers who feel tired and overwhelmed. I have seen many mothers who needed help but were afraid to ask for it because they were afraid that there was something wrong with them for not "loving every moment" of the parenting experience.

Being honest does not mean we do not love our children. In fact, that I was able to do all the things I hate for my son, I think, proves how much I do love him.

Stepping back down again.

Exactly!

My son still asks me sometimes if I "really" like him because his sister told him I seem to get stressed out and cranky a lot more now than I did when she was young. I was a single parent from the time she was two until age 12. I thought single parenthood and working full time and going to school part time was hard but I felt I had more support then and I definitely got more sleep, so I could handle it.

I told my son I was less cranky then because his sister let me sleep. I also told him that his sister and I are normal people and we need our eight hours of quality sleep and if we don't get it we do tend to get cranky, especially after weeks or in my case years of not enough sleep. He saw this for himself when his sister stayed with us for a few days. He didn't let her sleep either and she was worn out after only two days. She understands now why I seem tired, but most people don't. I don't think my husband understands. He, his adult son and our son just don't need much sleep and they make me feel like something is wrong with me for needing sleep, after all I am not working outside the home, and I am only homeschooling one child. How hard could that be?

Not only does my son not need much sleep, he has a fear of the dark and can't fall asleep by himself. I have to read to him or lie down on the bed until he falls asleep and then I go in the other bedroom. He wakes up after anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours and then can't go back to sleep. Since I worry that he will wake up my husband I go back in to my son's room to try to get him to sleep again. He usually tells me that he heard something outside or he had a bad dream or something and has to talk about it. Then I am wide awake and I start worrying about things and I can't fall asleep right away.

I miss feeling well rested. That is absolutely what I miss the most. I do miss living in the city sometimes and having friends that I had something in common with but that seems like it was another life. When I worked full time and felt tired I could call in sick. Can't do that now. I can't say anything to my dad about it because his situation is even worse. He can't even take cold medicine for fear that my mother will get up and wander out of the house or fall and hurt herself or who knows what. Luckily he never needed much sleep either.

At least I know there are people on this message board that understand and it helps.

I second that AMEN! Parenting is simultaneously the hardest and most rewarding thing we will ever do. I still remember the night before my DH was returning to work 2 weeks after DD was born. I couldn't stop crying. I was so afraid of being alone with her and messing everything up. When I finally verbalized "I miss our old life" to DH, I felt like a terrible mom. I knew by then that I was a major perfectionist, but I now believe that these kids make it so much harder than ND kids.

Do you guys have a Parents as Teachers (PAT) near you? I encourage you to look them up or find another organization that can help. PAT assigns a parent educator to your family who visits to see how you're doing. Mine told me that you cannot be a good parent if you don't take care of yourself first. Kind of like the airlines when they tell you to secure your mask before those next to you ;-)

I really believe that, so I agree with prior posts advising you to take care of yourself, however is best for you. My mom judged my DH and I when we would get a sitter for an evening even if DD had a little cold, but we needed the break and the time to reconnect. And for those single parents: I truly don't know how you do it. When DH is gone for 2 overnights, I think I'm going to die.

And I honestly believe that my clingy DD3 needs to learn patience, so if I am in the middle of doing something for me when she 'needs me', I give her the choice of waiting until I'm finished or figuring out an alternative to me. We made lots of progress on this during the holiday break, and life is much better right now.

Another wonderful benefit of PAT was their "playgroup formation" meeting. I joined a playgroup with others who had babies DD's age (which was 1-2 months old at that time). DD is now 8, and some of my closest friends are from that playgroup (and so are DD's). Even if you don't have PAT, find another organization (ie gymboree classes) where you can meet others in the same boat as you. I know it's awkward at first, but now I feel I can share all my 'bad mom' stories with those friends and they do not judge me!

And of course, keep posting your frustrations to this board so all of us will know that we aren't alone in this :-)

wow. all great replies! Thank you so much for sharing and being so honest. I know that parenting is hard and I agree that not being honest about how hard it is does no good for anyone. I just reconnected with a friend that I had not spoken to since elementary school (this is the friend with the 1 year old). We have been going to the odd walk/playdate and for the first time EVER I heard someone talk about how hard parenting is and how it was so unexpected. It was so refreshing to hear someone being so honest. I didn't even get that from my mom and baby classes I took when dd was a newborn. I couldn't sit with the group for more than 5 minutes a class because she was so fussy and refuse to be happy unless I was walking while holding her, but she wouldn't even let me walk in the mom and baby room...I had to leave and have her in the hallway. Even then, she would cry 90% of the time. But i would come back into the room to pack up at the end of the class and the instructor would ask me how everything was going. I would say "great" and she would say she was so glad to hear that and what a cute baby bla bla bla. It just felt like what we are supposed to do. How could I and why would I tell the group leader about my problems. Anyhow, it was so nice to hear my friend talk about it. I really respect her for being so honest!

I also agree with those of you that have mentioned something to the tune of happy mama=happy baby and that it is time to do something for myself. One part of my life that I miss so much is school. I wanted to be a university professor, but I have so much education left. It will never happen. That is a goal that I have to let go and it is hard. Another part of my life was soccer. I played very competitve level soccer and I miss that too. That is something that I don't really have the drive for anymore. I am just too tired and honestly I feel too old. So what is left of me? I don't know. That is something I have to figure out. If I was to do something for me, what would it be? Maybe I could start by trying to find time to go to the gym. I jsut don't know when that time would be.

I know there was more I wanted to say, but I can't remember right now. I will probably psot again later!

Thank you all again...so much! I keep reading the other posts in hopes of finding something I can give input/help with, but there is nothing yet. I really thank you for letting me pick your brains and letting me give nothing in return to you.

Thanks WBGTE Lori and KCAB for the support. I don't feel so lonely up on my soapbox now! PAT sounds like a great way for parents to support each other and be honest with each other. Even without PAT, I have found that by just being honest with other parents about how my day is really going that I am able to coax some more honesty out of other mothers.

I did just want to take issue though with one comment you made.


I hear this a lot and I think it gets said so much we often say it without thinking about it. While parenting is hard and can be rewarding, I always feel like this cliche is a bit dishonest as well. Do we actually have any data to prove this? Would raising my son really be harder and more rewarding than what Mother Theresa was doing in Calcutta? Or devoting one's life to curing a bad disease? Or negotiating a major peace deal? I don't know. But I guess it doesn't seem fair to those people who do not have children but make major sacrifices and contributions to this world, to people who wanted children but cannot have them, or to people for whom parenting is not rewarding.

Sorry about the soapbox again. I'll go lance my son's blood blister now. Pus. Gotta love this parenting thing!

acs - I agree that others have it far worse. Notice that I said it's the hardest thing "WE will ever do". By that I meant my DH and I. I know that we will not cure a bad disease or negotiate a peace deal :-)

And as for people who wanted children but cannot have them: I agree completely. In fact, our DDs are 5.5 years apart because we had fertility issues, and that 4 years was really hard. However, since it was not all that rewarding, I still stand by my statement that it is both hard and rewarding for DH and I simultaneously :-) Although as the eternal optimist that I am, I could argue that making it through that rough time was the reward, so let me modify my statement to say parenting is the hardest and most rewarding thing we will ever do voluntarily!

OK, now I'm rambling....

Onsie - wake up dear. I think you are dreaming. One 'advantage' of being shy and not socializing is that you don't get to see what ND is really like. So a side benifit of getting your self out there into the Mommy/babby world is that you will 'get orriented' - Believe me, I hope I'm wrong, and she loves every thing about school for the whole time, but the baby who cried through Mommy and Me class isn't going to suddenly become a social butterfly, ya' know?

Plus there is the small possiblity that she is like you, and shy will come naturally to her. So you get to practice your social skills together - that's ok. She is clearly telling you that she doesn't like that one year old. Stop setting up playdates with them. Go to the library or the park or the museam or wherever kids her age might be and practice you 'pick up' lines. Think of it this way - when it come time for your daughter to choose a mate, do you want her to take 'whoever shows an interest in her' or do you want her to be skilled in 'making things happen' socially around her? It is never to late to learn to say hello, and strike up a conversation, and see if you might like those other people. If she finds a kid that she really likes, then you don't have to socialize with the other Mom, you can take turns having an hour off.

I have to plug for my son's 'Other Mother' - on of the boys from daycare (around age 3) became friends with My DS, and I got to be friends with the Mom, and she has been able to provide things to my son that I would never be able to in a million years. At their house they build forts and campfires, eat differnt foods, play differnt games. When DS and I aren't getting along, he spends more time over there where someone remembers how precious he is. I taught her son to play chess, and always want to know what he's reading. I really, really, really can't imagine these last 10 years wtihout them in our lives. Another really wise friend tells her kids that they can learn to enjoy different sides of themselves with different people.

I know that I 'love new situations' and that not everyone is like this. DS and DH are 'slow to warm up' to anything that is new. But that's what is so great about being miserable, suddently parts of one that seemed 'not worth the trouble to develop' are looking pretty appealing.

I like the idea of the High School babysitter. Get one soon and go observe preschools and kindergarden, and then back to the gym or the university or the ball field. I love the idea of you playing soccer. Maybe the High Schooler and you and DD can all get out and play soon?

Wow!
Grinity

Ah, but you are young still. No telling what you will find to occupy your time when your 80. I have high hopes for you

Oh the cliches ... but for me I think that being a mother has been the hardest thing I have had to do but also the most rewarding I have experienced so far. I have worked in the corporate world as a network engineer and project manager and consulted on some major projects as well as been in the academics but none of it compares to being with my daughter. I will never forget the first few months with her and the arguments my DH and I would get into b/c he works so much. I had a c-section and only had him around for a week before he had to go back to work and I had to figure it out by myself. Even today I sometimes feel like a single mother because he works so much. Sometimes being the best means so much pressure put on you or on yourself. On top of no help I had the lovely infant that never slept. I never got a break like most moms did with the 2 hour naps. If I was lucky she would maybe sleep 30 minutes and that was on her best of days. But the funny thing is my mom had to remind me of that a few months ago with my famous comment of "I didn't get a baby. She is not a baby." I had forgot all about that time. But as a toddler I so love my time with my child. From the minute she started walking she became independent which freed me up and really helped in my pressures. As far as the rewarding; a day does not go by that I look into those bright beautiful eyes in amazement by what she discovered or what she said or did. I love seeing the world through her eyes and do not mind saying that she has opened my eyes to new things.

Maybe I am corny and gave you ammo for the soapbox for yet another sappy description of motherhood, but I will take it happily b/c I stand behind my claims.

Take one class. I started language class when DS was 2. He is now 13. I have now had 5 years of that language, been invited to Asia twice as a result of the contacts I made through my tutor and am now back in grad school for my second masters--one class at a time. I had no idea when I hired that tutor where it would all lead, but it's been amazing. I honestly just wanted something to keep my mind engaged but it opened up a new world for me.

I know several people who went back to college and then on to get PhD's after having kids. One woman I know got her PhD the same year her son did. Don't give up.

Also, could you find a local league for soccer or even just a few moms to go kick a ball around a few days a week. You must exercise. In fact, that may be just what you need to get energy back.

It sounds so easy doesn't it! It should be that easy and I do try so hard to be say hi and talk to other moms. I don't want my daughter to be anti social, so I fake it for her! I just can't stand small talk...it is so fake, but I guess that once you get to knwo someone then the small talk comes to an end. Dd starts a new dance class on thursday, so maybe there will be some parents there that I can "pick up"

I am sure she will be like me and be shy...I already see so many signs of it. But, I am hoping that she will like school regardless of that...like I did. Actually, I guess I wasn't shy in school, it is only since I became an adult...that's a weird realization!

anyways, I didn't think my original post would turn into a 3-page discussion, but it has been a good one. I think I know what to do...I need to help dd make a friend or two and I need to make a friend or two. Does that about sum it up? Oh and the idea of a "helper" is a great one, but would dd let me leave her with someone else...no way. Maybe if I did it gradually? Ya and this is the kid I want to drop off in a room full of other kids and some stranger adults. hmmmm not likely hey!

thank you all again. you are wonderful! I admire you all for being so honest here...it is so helpful!

Yup, you are exactly right. I need to exercise. I know I would feel so much better. I will work on organizing that. If she likes preschool (please please please) then that would be a good time for me to take a class, or something else for me. I would really look forward to that!

Thanks for sharing your story of going back to school...something I wish could happen for me. maybe somewhere in the far future, who knows right!

I have no problem with people saying that, for themselves, parenting is the most rewarding thing they have done. I have problems when the cliche is spoken in such a way as to suggest that people who do no have children are missing out on the potential for "the most rewarding thing ever," or when it suggests that there is something wrong with someone who is not having a rewarding parenting experience, or even that other things cannot possibly be more rewarding to themselves or others.

I have had a completely different career path than you so I have a different perspective. In my jobs and volunteer work I have helped the poor, the homeless, parents whose kids have died, women with HIV, and people with serious mental illness and their families. When I helped someone whom society has shunned, I have to say it was pretty darn rewarding. I wouldn't say that those things were necessarily more rewarding than parenting, but I did not find parenting to be markedly more rewarding than other things I have done. That's me.

Again my problem is not that people find parenting rewarding, only when that cliche is generalized to others. I never got a sense that you were overgeneralizing. And I like that you say "so far" because it leaves the door open for an even more amazing experience!

See it is all about perspectives and I am sure if I had your path I would have a different take on it all. You have truly done some noble work (I admire you)and if I had found that path I might not been so bored and numb to it all such as in the corporate world. I might be looking you up in a few years for some suggestions when I am ready to go back to work.

I have been in the workforce for 25 years and spent precisely 3 months of that working for a for-profit company and I hated every minute of it. So I completely understand what you mean--we have totally different reference points coming into parenting.

Incidentally, I do see many people coming to work in helping professions after having children. I think that having children can open up a level of empathy and nurturing and compassion that was there all along, but the children release it. So maybe that will be your path. Or maybe you will go back into the corporate world but able to see more opportunities to find rewards in that same work now that you know what to look for. I would never say that corporate work can't be rewarding because I know plenty of folks who do good wherever they go.

Sometimes I miss me. But since I was so much older when I had DD, I am just too grateful not to give up the former life. And now that she is 4, I find there are opportunities opening up, that I can be more of me. I am not gone, just hibernating.

And I look forward when she can do so many things with me. That instead of going to Rocking Horse Ranch and Disney World every year, we will travel all over the world. In fact, we are planning a trip to Mexico between Rocking Horse Ranch and Disney in April, over Feb break. Yes, it is only Club Med with a MiniClub for her, but there will be a trip to some ruins and some cultural newness. Yes, it is Cancun, but it is start.

Ren

I am so blessed in that my son's scores, which when combined together put him solidly in the 'Moderatly Gifted Catagory,' were extreame in just the right way that qualified him for Davidson's Young Scholar Program. Of course he does have a 4 standard deviation split between his highest subscores (many ceilings) and his lowest subscore (25%) - and I imagine that this is some of the reason that he was such a clingy baby, he didn't have a smooth developmental path. One of the great blessings is that I got to meet other Davidson parents and found out that 'No, it's not that I'm superficial and get board with other people after about 20 minutes at times, it that I really am quite different in my interests. I had made an early decision to channel my giftedness into 'being likeable to agemates,' as I felt that I stunk at it from 4th to 6th grade. Lucky for me, being dreadfully UNpopular during those years help me work on my 'Hello, Stranger' - since I was never going to be socially tolerated in that school building, I had nothing to lose. Later I developed a 'social mask' which did help me achieve my goal of being able to hang out with any group of kids. But I underappreciated that there is part of me that 'needs' to spend time with other people who have had similar experiences. I just took the lovely way I felt in my honor's Math class for granted. I need a variety of people with a variety of wonderful qualities in my life. I was in Gifted Denial so heavily that I had NO IDEA of this, and really cheated myself in the years after college and before DS was 'identified.' Of course, I always blamed any of my frustration on myself, never looking to see if my expectations were reasonable. Is it reasonable to spend 0% of my socializing time with Gifted Girlfriends? No. So often I think that the main thing Gifties lack is a reliable 'reference.'

During this period of time, my son was born. It was the first time in a long time that I got to spend a majority of my time with a Gifted Person. Did it matter that he was 6 weeks old? Not really. I was starved. Sometimes I worry that I created his giftedness because I needed it so much, and then I spend time with some of his agemate friends and realize, 'no' - DS and I just happen to have 'great chemistry.' I've seen enough families with more than one child, and know that this exists. [Being a GOOD parent is a very different thing than having 'great chemistry' with one's child.] Another blessing of the Davidson YSP is that I realized that as my son was getting older and more independent, that I was going to HAVE to prioritize finding a social life that met MY needs, so that I wouldn't be leaning on him longer that I should. ((BTW, thanks cyber-friends, you are definitly part of the picture; I love that I can get on here just open up my brain, without having to talk about the frozen pipes, or steer away from gossip or discuss shopping.))

One of the cool things that I've noticed with Kids and Adults at these Davidson Gatherings, is that people who call themselves 'shy,' sometimes are just 'constitutionally shy' but others are just 'shy' in the 'once bitten, twice shy' sense of the word. And when the context changes - they play, they talk, they dominate the conversation. If sitting next to a Mom whoes kids is happily playing with your child, and listening to the Mom saying: "He is so shy and stand offish at home, he never finds anyone to have fun with, it's great to see him really enjoying your son." doesn't bring a tear to your eye, then I guess you weren't shunned socially at school like I was during 4,5,and 6th grade. ((tears from just thinking about it))

So, Onsie, I'm wondering if you really ARE shy (and you sure may be) or if you have learned to 'keep your mouth shut' and nod your head to try and get by in the ND world.

The other thing to keep in mind, is that many of us Gifties have lots of OverSenstivities to noise, certian lights, sitting still, smells, itchy tags on clothing, and that many social situations (such as cocktail parties) don't make us feel like social butterfiles, because we are distracted by feeling like we are going to jump out of our skin. If you don't understand this part of yourself, then you can't use your social skills to manage situations in a way that you can be at your best. DS and I rolled our eyes during the movie 'August Rush' and the main character's parents find themselves up on the roof together during a party, and so they assume that they 'had so much in common.' My perspective is that 'of course' one will want to 'step away from the noise and heat of a party' and be alone in fresh air for a minute. But I know that people will look around at a room full of apparently happy partiers and assume that they are the only one feeling 'OverStimulated.' I know because I was able to say: 'Hey, It's really hot and loud in here, do you want to step outside for a minute and cool down?' and when the person would follow me outside to where we could talk without screaming, the first thing they would say is: 'Wow, it was so loud in here, I wanted to step out side for a minute, but felt like that would make me a loser, so glad that you suggested it.'

Of course maybe they were just being polite - LOL!

The book Outliers quotes research that suggests that to become a master at anything, one basically just spends 10,000 hours doing it. You probably spent that long with Soccer, and I probably spent that long figuring out how to hang with agemates. If it was my birthday and I could spend just one day experiencing the world through the body of a highly trained athlete, I would treasure that day. If I could lend you my 'social muscularity' for a day, I certianly would. But the truth is, that even small gains will eventually add up to the point were one can get enough experience to really enjoy oneself. It just may take a while to get over the hump, and also having small realistic goals to start with.

Smiles,
Grinity

Now that is wonderful small and reasonable goal. I'll bet that a physically awkward High School Giftie (boy or girl) might be willing to trade so 'Mother's Helper Time' for some 'phsical fitness' mentoring. I sure would have!

You may want some book reccomendations:
My favorite is http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Resources_id_12145.aspx

Even though the book is aimed at 5 - 12 year olds, read it now. With a little imagination I was able to apply a few tidbits to my own social interactions! Also, you can start using the language to point out little bits in action when watching TV and DVD's now, so that once your DD is 5, the information will be 'part of her world.'

I also found this to be a wonderful reference as to what a normal developmental path of friendship might be like, and it explained that a lot of the kids I was judgemental of and frustrated with from age 5-12 were actually normal, and that I did have different needs that the other kids. This helped me tremendously in not expecting my son's 7 year old friends to be 'sharing their deepest, most personal secrets.' Reasonable References, it's what we most lack, and need - here's one of them.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

((I know that I've typed a lot of words here, but this topic has hit home! This is it for now, I promise))

Here is the last bit of 'waking up' that I want you to do, dear Onsie:

You must stop thinking these words 'would she LET me' in your mind. I know that it is short hand for - would the trama of leaving her be worth the moments of selfhood? But you must stay in the parent role here. She is a long way off from being in charge of this situation.

So from now on, you must say, even in the privacy of her mind, 'I'm not ready emotionally, for the scene that would be required if I left her with 'someone else.'

So yes, babysteps are required here. I have a 'clangy' kid, and I know that he reads my feelings so clearly - he has a 'PhD' in ME!

So here are some ideas in how to take somebaby steps in the right direction:

First - figure out if you do trust the 'universe' enough to leave her with 'the right person.' Journal, post, talk to someone, until you are 'SURE' that this will be a growing thing for your family. If it is nescessary to your stability, than I am 'SURE' that is a growing thing for your family, but you need to be sure also.

2nd - Cultivate that one or two friends for the both of you. Being left while she is playing with a friend is totally different than being left alone with another grown up.

3rd - Are you married to DD's Dad? Sorry to be so personal, but if this is your set up, then you might have to be 'the leader' in insisting the DH (or whatever) step up to the plate and be alone with her. Sorry if this is already an 'of course' with you, but I know that for someone reading this, they feel that they can't leave a 4 year old with DH for more than 1 hour. I remember starting to go away for weekends when DS was around 5. DH needed quite a bit of 'training' by that point, and DS wasn't happy with the idea, to say the least, and there were emotional scenes. But when I returned, the two of them were 'snug as bugs in rugs.' I still go off for 3 to 4 weekends per year, so that they have focused time together. Would I prefer to have the whole house to myself and kick them out? I would! And for the last few years they take a vacation week together about once a year and I clean, clean, clean and just be in my space. Heaven!

4th - 4th best is an older lady, perhaps an empty nester, who will visit on a regular basis, eventually they can go on excursions or you can leave for short breaks. If you are involved with a religious organization, a leader there might be able to reccomend someone. Someone in the school system may know of a retired teacher. Keep your ears open! Any activity that intersts you is bound to attract someone with a little more time on their hands who you might actually like enough to take on this role.

5th - that 'mother's helper' highschool (or middle school kid) might grow into an actually babysitter over time.

Belive me, getting my hair cut was a big deal back in those days. I remember! You must be the leader, no matter how slow you go! Must, Must, Must!

One nice advantage I had with daycare, was that the teachers there could moonlight as babysitters. 'Good Chemistry' has it's ups and downs!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Grinity, thank you so much for the time you have taken to reply. I hope that what you have written are helping other parents (I am sure it is!) it is so much easier to do so on the computer than in real life. It turns out I can be quite honest about it all when I am typing...easy to sit behind a computer with cheeks blushing. Easier than right in front of you all anyways!

I should start by clarifying. I am not gifted. I am very average! I loved school, so much so that I became a teacher, with goals of spending the majority of my teaching career in a university setting. Math came easily to me, but everything came hard. Strangly enough, one of my degrees is an english degree. I have the worst english skills. At one point in highschool one of my teachers told me I was lacking in skills just as if I were ESL. Honestly I think it more about me not attending classes, and being so concerned about my social life rather than being about abilities...but I think even if I had gone to class and tried I still wouldn't have been that straight A student. After high school, I pretty much cut ties with all of my old friends. They didn't grow up. They kept living the same life we lived in high school (partying etc), and they still do today. I didn't fit in anymore. After I came home from University, I was so sad to discover that things were the exact same with them...I had hoped they had changed like I had. So, that led to my anti social behaviour (I didn't go at all anymore, and I had no friends!), and I think since I have been anti social for so long, I have just forgotten how to be social and now I am shy! Does that make some sort of sense?

I will say that i do have oversensitivites though and that has been with me always...even when I was "social", it was always an act. I was never comfortable at the parties...I would have much preferred to be at home with a couple of friends watching a movie, but it was all about being "cool". If only I could go back in time, i would have done things so differently...but that's life right!

We brought in a mother's helper to play with the kids while I was still home with them. That was a nice transition for them. They got to know the sitter and I got to train her very thoroughly. Then when I was ready to leave them with her, everyone else was ready, too. (Plus, a M's helper is cheaper than a full-on sitter!)

And I'm late to the party, but I want to echo acs's wise words: a lot of parenting is utterly unrewarding, at least to me. Wiping other people's bottoms and repeating the alphabet over (and over, and over, and over...) was NOT rewarding to me! I got a big laugh out of the blood blister, too, acs. Perfect timing to make your point! That stuff just doesn't fulfill me as a person, and it never will. It's necessary work, so I did it and still do it as it comes my way. But it is not fun, rewarding, interesting, or stimulating. It made my brain go numb, frankly. I needed more.

The trick is to *find more* when you get to that point. Losing yourself in that mess of bodily fluids and boring routine isn't healthy. Find something that interests you. Embrace it.

I went to Iceland alone to research my book. My WONDERFUL husband and my parents kept the kids while I was gone. That's an extreme example, but it makes my point, I hope, that sometimes you just need MORE, and that's okay. Find a way to get it.

What do you love? What do you miss? What do you need?

Now go get that! Maybe in small doses. But get that!

I was at a girl's night out with the moms from our playgroup a few years ago, before I started writing. We played some silly board game that asked questions that we all had to answer. The one I most remember is "Are you where you thought you would be?" Everyone else said, yes, they were just where they thought they would be at that point in their lives: perfectly happy and fulfilled, loving parenthood and getting all they needed from it. I alone said, "No, I thought I would have both a career and parenthood, and I'm missing that second part. I love what I have, but it isn't enough for me." They all looked at me as if I had two heads.

I don't know if they were lying to themselves or repeating the cliches they thought they're supposed to say, or if I really was just that odd. But no one even seemed to understand. How could I not be perfectly content to be a mom and nothing more? But I really find it hard to believe that scrubbing toilets and picking up dirty undies is what gave these college-educated women all they needed in life.

And to add the necessary caveat, I dearly love my kids. Heck, I'm homeschooling one of them! How much more can I do, you know? But I don't believe that we should sacrifice who we are at the altar of our children. That is not what I want to teach my children about me, about women in general. We need to have lives that are separate from our kids. I really believe that.

Stepping down... So who is next on the soapbox? LOL!

Grinity you are right...

It is more about me than her. I am not ready to leave her with anyone. I can and do leave her with dh (yes, he is her dad too), and that has gotten SO much better in the last month or so. He is a teacher as well, so he was off for a few weeks at Christmas, and he and dd spent so much time together. Sometimes he gets up with her on the weekends and I get to sleep for a couple of extra hours!! She used to cry for me and not let me sleep...lately this hasn't been the case. I haven't tried leaving the house for awhile, while he watches her, but I don't think this would be a huge problem anymore. So this is big for me! It doesn't provide a lot of opportunity during the week because he gets home late and she goes to bed early, but on weekends i should be bale to sneak out once in a while.

But, back to what I started saying...i am not comfortable leaving her. I knwo that is so wrong. She is 2 years (and almost 3 months) old. She isn't a helpless baby anymore, but I am just not comfortable leaving her with a babysitter. I trust my husband with her and my mom, to some extent, with her. Like you said though, it would be MUCH easier to leave her with a friend while she was happily playing. So that is obviously something that I should be working on. I think that finding a mom I trust with a child that dd gets along with is my best bet. I just don't know where I would meet anyone else. I will try to make a friend or two for myself, but I haven't figured out where or how yet...other than a mom from a mom and baby class. So that's what I will start with. If I new a responsible teenager, or an elderly lady I would be open to haveing them over while I was home. They could play with dd while I clean, cook, shower...do something fun. Maybe gradually I would trust them more and more and dd would as well. Then after some time, I could leave the house while they babysat. I just don't know any teenagers or elderly. Our neighborhood is surprisingly snobby and people just keep to themselves. But it is something I am open to, so I will keep my eyes and ears open.

Thank you for pointing out that I must be the leader and that I am the parent. I know this, but it is so easy to fall into the role of follower with dd. This is a reminder I need to give myself daily...I am the leader!

Thank you again. I will reread your posts a few times I am sure. I am sending you a big cyber hug because I really do appreciate you! thanks!

thank you Kriston and acs as well. I know what you are saying and it is so nice to hear you verbalizing my exact thoughts! It is rewarding in ways, but it is mind numbing...oh my gosh it is mind numbing. I figure as dd gets older it will get better. Our conversations will be more interesting as she gets older, our activies will vary daily, and like I mentioned before she will be in school so i will hopefully get a break (yes I am still holding on to this hope!). My battery is going to die on my computer and the cord is broken so I will this post here. I will power up dh's computer later and probably type more.

Thank you all though!

Yeah, I thought school would give me a much-needed break...and now I'm homeschooling. Things don't always work out the way you expect...

I think Grinity is right that you need to find a way to take a break for yourself sooner rather than waiting for later. Get over the idea that you are the only one who can take care of your child. Frankly, it's not true, and you're not doing yourself any favors there. (Tough love there, but important for you to hear, I'm afraid. And it really is said out of honest care for your well-being!)

Find a responsible 12 or 13yo and have her come over afterschool while you're in the house. Use that time to read or write or take a long bath or think or whatever you don't have time to do. You're still in the house, so you know your daughter is safe. Teach the mother's helper how you do things so that she can be a great sitter when you want one. When that sitter gets old enough that she's hard to get when you need her, start training another 12 or 13yo.

It's a system that has worked smashingly for us. DH and I go on dates every single week and have since our kids were small, and we know that our kids are perfectly safe because I have trained the sitters extremely well. We can even take overnights for special occasions like anniversaries without worrying. Heaven! With no family in town for us, it's really been the only solution for us, and it has been a good one.

We're on our 4th sitter now, and all 4 of them love our kids like family. The older ones who are off at college come back to visit often because they like us all so much and know that we like them. They choose to spend time with us just for fun when they don't have to. It's really the way to do it. You need a support system.

Get some time for you. It's important!

I completely agree with the folks who are telling you to get breaks. It is the direction of sanity for yourself. I also think it teaches your child to have confidence in herself and the world of which she is a part. When she goes off to school, she will have to trust adults other than you and you will have to trust those same adults. I would suggest that you can start preparing yourself in baby steps toward that now.

From the beginning, I wanted DS to know that the world is a good place and is filled with people who loved him and could take care of him. Of course, he would have a special bond with me, but I also wanted him to experience deeply the ways in which others loved and nurtured him. I did not want him to grow up afraid. I wanted him to be confident of himself and others (As he got older and able to hang out with people I hadn't chosen for him, we have taught him not to trust everyone, of course.)

Now that he is a teen, I see him wanting to stretch his wings more. Because I have several lives other than parenting him, I find that we both do better with letting go of each other as he does that. Of course we still fight etc. But he does not worry about how I will do without him and I know that I have taught him good skills that will serve him well. If my primary identity was as his mother, I think that this process would be harder.

I think, in the end, that making small steps toward independence for both of you will help you both out in the long run.

Ok Onsie,
Well Done!

Advice about 'how to find someone'

1) Remember that it isn't as difficult as it seems because once you find one, then they tend to know others.
2) Make a list of all the organizations you belong to: Local Museam, Religious Group, La Leche Leauge - whatever.
3) Contact someone at each group and ask for what you need.
4) Make a list of possible organizations that you don't belong to - hospital, pediatrictions office, local school, library, and
5) contact someone at each group and ask for what you need.
6) repeat as needed. If word of mouth doesn't work - a small ad in the local newspaper might.
7) If there is a local newspaper, read it and contact the people in the paper who seem interesting. Ditto for local High School newsletter or cable TV show.

remember that with each step you take, you are a bit closer to success. Actually, I'd start with the Children's Librarian at the closest library. She'll know who the big readers with nice parents are.

I guess that there are books written on social networking. I'm thinking people here might have more ideas. If all else fails, volunteer to help coach a middle school girl's soccer team, and bring DD with you to the practices. You'll get to hand pick the 12 and 13 year olds. They are the best!

Smiles,
Grinity

Grinity: great list and I love the idea of coaching for oneisenough. And Kriston I love that you came out and said what most of us were thinking but just did not have the balls to type it.

I only wanted to add a train of thought to acs post. Oneisenough,

You were a teacher at one point and think about it from that angle. Parents trusted you with their children and as a society this is an accepted practice that we have to look outside ourselves and trust people with our children. If you were worthy of that trust isn't there someone you can give a chance to trust with your child? She is old enough to take steps away from you and that doesn't mean that your bond with her will be broken. You are just taking the necessary steps we all have to do: letting her spread her wings. It is a very important part of mothering and just as important as the first stage. I know it is hard for a lot of people but essential for you and her. So no more excuses. I believe in pulling the bandaid off quickly. Take Grinity's list and run with it. Make a goal to call at least two places on the list tomorrow and open the door to the conversation. You will find that the more places you contact the more you will be at ease and the more you will be closer to the goal.

Oh also to add to Grinity's list, if your community has a newletter or an email group those are great ways to advertise. Our community is always emailing out about preteen and teenagers looking for babysitting jobs. Also if you have a community mailbox check for postings there are post one yourself.

Homeschool groups can be a great place to find sitters, too. Their hours tend to be more flexible than your average teen or pre-teen.

Thank you for all of the wonderful ideas. I now know that this is something that I HAVE to work on, just as much for dd as for myself. I relly do like the idea of a mothers helper, and Grinity gave me a great list of where to look for someone. I also like the suggestion of a homeschool group because of the flexable hours (if I were to go with a 12-13 year old). I am not sure how the $$ part of it will go over with dh, but I will talk to him.

Anyhow, I don't know what else to say. You have all given so much time typing your replies and I really thank you for that. So now I think it is just up to me to take some first steps.

Thank you

Again, I resemble you.

Except I literally didn't make it out of the house to my mothers and newborns group/class until DD was 3 MONTHS old. She refused to go into a carseat and basically refused to let me do anything but hold her, nurse her, and bounce her endlessly on an exercise ball. I had to bounce her on the exercise ball in the mothers class, too. I looked ridiculous but I was too desperate to care by that point.

That's about the point I started lurking on this site. Things were different - harder - right from the very beginning. I found threads from other mothers describing the exact same things I was experiencing, like having to hold the newborn upright to see the world so learning could commence immediately.

We have high maintenance children.

We lack a readily available supply of equally exhausted peers.

Hi,

I've been watching this post with interest, since it seems to describe my relationship with my DS4 to a T. My DS4 was a terribly high needs baby who thoroughly crushed any vague notions we might have had about having more than one child, and I am a mother who does not especially like babies. I spent the first couple of years wishing I could fast forward to the part where we'd be able to have conversations, tell each other jokes and draw pictures together, and he'd occasionally go off on his own to read or play by himself for a while. We're finally getting there, and I am enjoying my son more than ever, but I have to say, he's only slightly less demanding at age 4 than he was as a baby. Instead of crying for me to hold him, my son now follows me around the house (so close I literally trip on him sometimes) whining "Mama, when are you going to PLAY with me" if I dare do anything as selfish as try to clean or make dinner. To make matters worse, as he gets older, the lack of siblings is becoming more of a problem. Even with nearly constant interaction at home (my husband and I basically take turns playing with him when we're not working), preschool 4 times a week, gym night and playdates in between, he tells us he's "lonely and bored." I get no exercise, have no real friends outside of email, and still (after 4 long years!) feel like I'm waiting for that day when I'll have more freedom (maybe once he reads chapter books??!). I still can't even figure out how people find time to post on this site as often as they do--DS4 is "waiting" for me right now.

Anyway, I'm realizing, my HG son is never going to "give" me more time or "let" me have more time, and that if I want time for myself, I'm going to have to "take" it. My mother always felt like she gave far more than she received while my siblings and I were growing up, and she was very bitter and resentful as a result, which wasn't good for anyone. I don't want to be like that.

He calls . . .

Ms. Friz,

When we decided that DS would be an only child (and we did that when he was 4!) we started reading about only children to make sure we avoided the common mistakes.

One of the books we read (You and Your Only Child)made an important point, one that we have taken to heart. That is that parents of only children often feel responsibility to be their child's playmate and best friend. We feel like, since we didn't have sibling for our kids, that we should fill that role. But that is not our job. We are the parents. We do have a couple responsibilities--finding other people (kids and adults) who our children can spend time with and teaching our children to entertain themselves.

Two wonderful attributes (I think) that are seen in only children are an ability to make very close, very fulfilling friendships and the ability to be satisfied with one's own company and not "need" to restlessly fill up every moment with other people. When you volunteer to be your son's playmate, you reduce the chances that he will learn these skills.

This obviously doesn't mean you shouldn't play with him. But we found that by setting limits on our time with him we created the need for him to find other things to do and other kids to play with. He is now 13 and is always inviting other kids over, playing with the neighbors, reading, and playing fun games he thinks of on his own.

And he is happy. And I have plenty of time to myself. And we are still very close (even though he won't admit that in public).

We are still in the stage of are we or aren't we with a second child and as the months go by we are closer to the only child decision so I guess, for me, I haven't got to the concept of how to handle an only child so I do appreciate the information you passed along. I quickly went to trying to get her to play on her own when she showed signs of it and I know this was before she was a year old. But again I had that high maintenance baby who never slept and always wanted to sit up in your arms and by the time she showed signs I was so ready. So I am glad that my selfish reasoning corresponds with the advice.

I'm sorry that you can relate to me! I know that a demanding child is exhausting! I really do appreciate you sharing though. I remember when dd was a newborn she would only sleep 8 or 9 out of 24 hours,. The doctor told me she should be sleeping something like 18-22 hours. He said it was fine because she was growing etc and that she just didnt need as much sleep. i remember the only way to get her to sleep for a long time was to literally bounce her on our knees until she fell asleep. I also remember the days of not being able to put her in the car seat...she would arch her back and scream so I couldnt do up the straps. That was so frustrating! I also spent the first year sitting in the back seat with her so that I could entertain her. If I was alone in the car with her she would cry (or if I dared to try sitting in the front when dh was driving). We are at the tripping over dd stage too and we also trade off playing with her...it's like a tag team on weekends when dh isn't working. Anyhow...it is just really nice to hear you talk about what you went through and are going through. I don't even think my parents believed me when I would complaing about how high needs she was as a baby. She is obviously so much better (toss her a cracker and she is ok in the car for a few minutes...but then the questions start: "hey Mama, what is that wire for? Where is that truck going? Why is it foggy?" lol fun fun.

Just wantd to let you know how much I appreciate your post.

You mean that every child doesn't scream in the car from birth on and arch their little backs when you try to buckle them in? I thought that they all did that!

Also that non-sleeping thing...I was just going through dS's babybook - he was in a sling attached to me in almost every picture. I 'believed' in the 'family bed' thing and DS seemed very content to sleep and nurse as long as I was in physical contact with him. Naps were 'in the sling' while I cooked or picked up the house. I tried putting him down for a nap, but it seemed that he would wake up wailing withing 15 minutes. He would occasionally sleep for a whole hour, but it was so unpredictable, that I couldn't do much more than zone out anyway.

In a way it was lucky that I was socializing with 'La Leche Leauge' moms who were very into 'filling the true needs' and there was one of the Leader Moms there had a baby like mine.

This is why I laugh to myself when you say that you baby isn't like mine Onsie! At two mine wasn't reading or doing anything I could recognise as gifted, just really really 'awake, alert, and demanding.' I think that this is not a sign of giftedness, more a sign of a personality turned to 'high level' due to the giftedness.

((shrug))
Grinity

Okay this is to you oneisenough and to grinity. The above mentioning of arching their back made me think of my friend's babies and major acid reflux. Of course trying to strap a baby into the carseat does not mean it has anything to do with it, but did your babies arch their backs after feedings and if you put them down flat for a nap? My friend is my super expert in the department and is very sensative to those actions b/c her first daughter was spitting up while nursing and not wanting to lay down and very clingy. She didn't think anything of it at first but when she took her in for a well check up she found out that she was not gaining weight and had a severe case of acid reflux. They are coming to discover that a lot of babies diagnosed with colic are babies with acid reflux. Now she has her second baby and she too has the same problems but she was able to watch for the signs and get her help immediately but still she has fallen off the charts for growth. I really don't know why I am bothering you guys with that but just more of a curiousity on my part if your children tended to do the above mention things.

That is EXACTLY what MR W would do. A few changes and he was just fine.

Grinity your description summed up my experience to a T. After my first was like this, my friends would say "Your second will be so easy." They were so wrong! She was even more intense than the first.

My back aches thinking of all the hours using the baby sling. DH and I would joke that DDs had horizontal sensors: as soon as you would try to lay them down, their eyes would pop open and the screaming would begin.

Sounds like a good title for a book I needed when my daughters were born. It's gotten better now that they're older (4&6). Now it's less physically demanding but more mentally challenging.

Wow, I'm jealous that your kids would be in a sling! I tried it several times in different positions and all I got was screaming.

He wanted to be upright and moving, but not confined. So, for me, that just meant carrying him with my arms. He was 9lbs5oz at birth and grew quickly so I just remember most of that first year as being soar and overheated. He would do OK in the stroller or car seat as long as we were moving, but as soon as the car or stroller stopped, watch out!

And ditto on the "horizontal sensor" DH would have to walk DS for several hours each night before he was completely asleep adn could be put down.

for us it wasn't acid reflux. We hoped it was that simple and brought her to so many different doctors. we were the overprotective parents that were always at the doctors and the walk-in clinics. I don't know what it was for dd...she just didn't need as much sleep and she still doesn't. She loves life and doesn't want to miss any of it! I tihnk the back arching thing is sort of common though isn't it?

On a different note...we went to a new playgroup today that we had never been to. I went with my sister-in-law and neice and my friend (with the 1 year old that dd doesn't like) was there too. Dd spent half the time reading books by herself and wanted nothin to do with anyone except me. she didn't even want to play with her cousin which was weird. But it was nice to get out to a different environment. I might take her there a couple more times and see if she starts to like it. Most of the parents seemed to be sitting arounf the edges of the room and chatting while their little ones played...that would be a nice goal!

we didn't have any luck with a sling or baby carrier either. I think maybe if i had started that right from day one, she might have given it a chance...but waited until she was a couple months old and there was just no way. The swing worked for a month or so (on and off) then the bouncy chair worked on and off too for a little while, her playpen had a vibrate setting and that was good for a couple of months...so we had small amounts of time here and there where she was happy. I was so lookign forward to the exersaucer, but that one didnt fly either. She just wanted to be walked around. guess I would get bored of sitting in a swing agter 20 minutes too! Oh and in the stroller she was ok too...as long as I sang the ABC's (and it had to be ABC's, not twinkle twinkle or anything else!) hahaha no wonder I had no friends, I am sure I looked like a big weirdo!

So glad those days are behind me! Thinking of them kind of feels like I made it through major surgery (over and over!), or some sort of survivor show! lol

oneisenough... I for one am very proud of you!!! I am so glad you ventured out and tried something different. Just remember that it is probably new to DD and I would not expect anything less for her first time. You should definitely take her back with the logic that it will hopefully become familiar to her and with that she will be more willing to open up. Just like it is baby steps for you; it is baby steps for her. But again take your bow and feel the warmth because you earned it!

We used a Baby Bjorn from 3 weeks on and Mr W was facing forward at 3 mos. He had to have his nightly walk or he would NOT go to sleep. We got to where we would transition from the walk to his crib and that worked great.

Currently he needs 1-2 hours outside a day or he drives everyone nuts - rain or shine, cold or warm. We do a nightly walk and Mr W checks things out and listens to us talk.

I fixed your post.

My DW and her friends talk about this. It amazing to me how few fathers are involved with their kids and appreciate their SAHM wives.

Reading this reminded me of something that did work and allowed me to take a break: the johnny jump up.

is that like the jolly jumper?

A DW's friend got her BS, MS, and PHD after she became a single mom with FOUR kids. Of course, she lived a few minutes from work, elem school, and college!!

Reading all of this is really bringing back memories of how intense my DD really was... I think I have suppressed a lot of it! But reading the posts about slings and trying the playpen and bouncy chair and on and on I am coming back to a reality check about my DD as an infant. I could have wrote oneisenough's post verbatim. I remember commenting at one point that having babies on the whole really not that expensive especially if you breastfeed, but when you start adding in going to the baby store every few weeks and buying yet another contraption in hopes to appease the little monster to give you some sort of freedom even if it is for only 20 minutes... than the costs went through the roof. Okay we did not buy the vibrating playpen at first but we eventually bought a vibrating attachment in hopes to keep her occupied. Yea worked for a few uses. The bouncy chair was always out in hopes that she would like it. We played the game of move baby to next activity and see if that keeps her attention... never did. And the sling...worked for two days and I could at least go to the kitchen with her in it and have my arms free but than that was useless. It got to the point that I even wondered why we had a crib. My only savior was the swing and I felt like such a bad mother because that is the only place I could get her to sleep at night. But desperate times called for desperate methods. She spent her first 4 months in a swing to sleep. We used it so much that we had to buy a second one.

But we got past the hurdle and time heals all for me anyway because I really have forgotten A LOT of that. We even thought we had a child that was more normal in the sleeping department now, but I have come to discover that that is not true. She goes to bed with no problems but she still does not sleep through the whole night. I learned that on many of my trips with her. She will usually wake up around 3 am or 4 am and play quietly in her bed for an hour or two and finally go back to sleep until 7 or 8 if we are lucky... but she will never yell to get up rather play until we finally go in and get her. I have to say the whole imaginary play really works on our behalf. So she still doesn't sleep that much but is independent enough to allow us ours.

It's a contraption that you secure to the door frame and the baby "stands" supported by a seat. The baby can bounce, spin and jump. Looks like there's a few different names and styles including the Bungee Baby Bouncer.

http://www.amazon.com/Evenflo-Class...y-products&qid=1232403277&sr=8-1

Thank you! We will go back and I the way I look at it is that it was pretty much like an unstructured, paly-centered preschool but with a lot of adults there too. There was play time, snack time and circle time. So it would be great if she started to warm up to that environment because it could not only be fun for her, but it could be an nice introduction to preschool.

We have a stack of "car toys" he only sees when he is in the car. They are parceled out from the front seat to his hands as he gets bored with each one.

There are times on longer trips when he will scream to be let out of the car seat and NOTHING will stop him. His limit is an hour if no one is with him and three hours if its just one of us.

Its exhausting to entertain him and neither of us can do it for more than a couple of hours.

ok gotcha! In Canada we call it a Jolly Jumper. I for sure thought dd would like that...it looked like so much fun! Whenever we would put her in there she always just hung there limp, looking around with a ver unimpressed look on her face...then the wailing would begin! I had hoped she would jump for hours and hours and be so tired that she would sleep all night long! lol maybe i get my hopes up a little too much!

Me too! I had gotten my hopes up with the baby swing and was so glad I hadn't bought one. Luckily, I was able to borrow one from a friend before learning it didn't do the trick for us.

No I didn't ask for it but I appreciate it! And I wonder if maybe my friend is so easy to jump to acid reflux with the second one because as I read your information I remember first I don't see her doing the holding techniques you describe but also tummy time was very lax on their part. The doctor brought it up and she was embarrassed to say that they really aren't putting baby #2 on the floor but she does lay on mommy's tummy when changing positions for breastfeeding which the doctor concluded that that was tummy time. I would love to bring this up to her but I am afraid it will result with her feeling attacked or having negative feelings. And I am the first to say I don't butt into others parenting styles.

I'm proud of you! And I'm glad you're thinking in terms of giving her time to adjust. Yay!!!

Hi Katelyn's Mom -
I know how curious I can be, so here goes:

When he arched to prevent me getting the harness on in the car, I have no idea how old he was, but I had never seen the behavior before or in any other circumstance. There we lots of body language and facial expressions that made it clear (to me) that he just didn't want to be in the carseat. Maybe I leaped to that conclusion since he cried in the carseat so constantly. At that age, no car toy would have mattered - we tried. Later the car was our friend, and he would fall asleep in it. We even had a baby monitor and an extention cord in the garage so that if he was sleeping after a car ride, I didn't have to move him and wake him up. I know that around age 2, he got a 'Leapfrog' Schoolbus with all the letters on the side, and it was a car toy that fasinated him for hours. He would press the 'B' button and the thing said: 'B' makes the 'Bu' sound.

One of his Daycare teachers pulled me aside to let me know that be could make all the sounds when she pointed to letters on an alphabet puzzle at school. She seem 'very impressed' - I felt highly embarrassed, as if caught. Beyond the feeling of embarrassment, I instantly blocked the whole thing with: 'Of course he can do that, he has that toy!' I will say that the next few years of non-reading felt scary - because outside of the words 'Start' and 'Exit' from the computer programs, he really didn't make any progress until first grade! It was weird, but even my one college friend who had raised gifted kids highly discouraged me from paying any attention to that 'gap.' Wish I could have come here and posted back then - perhaps we could have gotten involved with his vision issues earlier. At the very least I sure would have loved to hear that I wasn't crazy to be concerned!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I had no idea what 'tummy time' was until DS was 6 months old. I hope he did some at daycare - as he was there 5 hours a day 3 days a week. When a friend who I respected took the time to sit with me so I could try to put him in 'tummy time' there were many tears (rage on his part, sadness on mine)

The deal with the sling was that he did cry when we first used it, but that I was very active in the local La Leche group, and one of the leaders sold me my sling, so she taught me how to use it, and every month would show me new positions to use it in. He did get used to it, and I did learn to nurse with him in the sling, which was probably the 'killer application' for DS. Did he use me as a 'pascifier' - no doubt! How knows if I did right or wrong - not me for sure!

If I could have put him down on that 'sheepskin' thing and done 5 minutes of 'kitchen duty' I'm sure he would be a different kid today, but I'm not sure that I would have been willing to watch him get that mad and that sad. I hope that with support, I would have. ((shrug))

Love and More Love,
Grinity

You know I have a couple of thoughts as I was reading through your last two posts. First I really hear some doubt in yourself for some of the choices you made. Okay we all have them at some point... the second guessing is just human nature but just know that everyone takes a different path in this thing called motherhood even siblings from the same family brought up in the same way can have very different styles and I think that has a lot to do with individual personalities such as your statement I quoted above. Even if you had the support during that and people telling you you needed to put the baby down and let him cry for 5 minutes you probably couldn't bring yourself to that point. Maybe a minute OR maybe the whole 5 minutes but I am going to bet you have a high empathy level and really suffer along with the upset person. Some people are like that and others can be a little numb to it (case in point me!)


So please don't second guess yourself because it really doesn't help. In the end you brought up a child (to the age he is now)that I am sure is a wonderful individual. He would have to be if he is your son.

Grin, you practice Attachment Parenting. Your ways may be counter-culture for Americans, but not crazy. Have you ever read Dr. Sears' work or gone to the website kellymom. com?

I read many books by Phenelope Leach while pregnant, and then the Sears' books after the baby came. DS seemed to be more of a 'Sears' baby than a 'Leach' baby.

Thanks for the Support K's Mom, I do have some doubts about the choices I made, because I would have loved to have been the 'perfect parent' for DS12.But it was not to be. Also, I think the fact that I have doubts is better than the early days when I was sure that I was doing it exactly right.

LOL - I wonder if anyone else loved the Grace Jones song: "I'm not perfect, but I'm perfect for you!"

Attachment parenting got me through those 'high need' years without really realizing that I was doing double duty! So in that respect 'it worked.' DS is an wonderful individual. A bit of a couch potatoe, though. The apple didn't fall far from the tree, in that respect.

It bugs me though that there is no way to look at all the parenting methods and know which ones work for which kids. Something this important should have guidebook, and not just 'Gurus.' ((shrug))

I do have 'high empathy' but I am actually quite at home with crying when I can see a rational for it. I don't see crying as an 'I'm hurting' statement. I see it as, 'I was hurt/frustrated/whatever, and now I'm healing it by sharing it.'
Although 1 minute to start with sounds better than 5 minutes!

My brother assured me at the time that although I stuck out on the East Coast of the US, that in San Francisco, I would be 'a dime a dozen.'

I loved becomeing a mother, becasue I felt like it let me into this screte club that had been closed to me before. It didn't really suprise me that I Mothered 'differently' than most folks.

Happy Smiles,
Grinity

Oh Grinity I will let you in on a little secret. We all wish for that 'perfect' mother gene but it doesn't exist. As an historian and artist my love is the 1950s at the height of the cold war. I had found a list in an old high school home economic textbook that was taught to teenagers in the 50s. I love that list because it is how to be the perfect wife and mother. So get ready to copy and paste and make sure you follow through....ready?

Actually I don't have the whole list it is probably on an old harddrive but it basically goes like this. Be sure to have your table set with the food hot and ready for when your husband comes home. You should run the vacuum one more time about 20 minutes before he is to arrive. (Right because I always run mine a few times a day... lucky if it gets pulled out 1 mth) Have the children properly dressed with faces cleaned and hair brushed. Be sure to reapply your makeup and freshen up your attire. Have a cocktail ready for when he comes in the door.

I know I am missing something in that list but there you go the perfect housewife of the 1950s. My point really is that the idea of perfect needs to be replaced because it really doesn't exist and during the era when we strive for it all we got is plastic shells that tried to keep up with the jones. I prefer keeping it real and real means that no one is perfect. Not even Kriston! (Okay I couldn't resist.)

You know Grinity, the style of parenting that you practise(d) is what is expected of us in my city. We are told to put our babes in our bed, wear a sling, breast feed no matter what etc. We are given so many stats about babies that are carried more, as opposed to put down. We are told that babies need skin to skin contact daily in order to form proper attachments etc etc.

I felt so guilty if I put dd down just to use the washroom (probably made it worse because of the fact that she would hyperventilate and practically make herself throw up if I put her down!). I just have such great respect for those parents that practised attachment parenting. I am sure your son is wonderful...no one is the perfect parent. It just isn't possible to be the perfect parent, but if you were tryign to practise attachment parenting...I believe that you did the best possible for your son!

LOL! Katelyn's mom, I actually would love to be this person! The fact is, our vacuum looks surprisingly new even though it's 8 years old, DH does much of the cooking and all of the bartending, and I shower oh once a week. (My idea of perfume these day is Soft-n-Dry deodorant and my idea of make up is chap stick.) DD has a bath before bed, so she's typically dirty by day.

I'm from Connecticut but live in a small California town, so my inner preppy often clashes with my inner hippie. We had every intention of parenting like my parents did in the 1950s, but we found ourselves practicing attachment parenting instead. I would read up on what we were experiencing, run across Dr. Sears' work and think, "This guy is a quack!" But then there we were, already doing what he said to do.

I was ashamed for a long time, but now I have parenting pride. DH and I just did what DD needed and we did it in full agreement with each other. I don't judge anyone who parents the regular American way (North American? apparently the west coast of Canada and all of Mexico practice attachment parenting), but neither do I want to be judged for the way we parent. My niece, in college, showed us her brand new childhood development text book which points out how the American way of parenting newborns is much different than that of every other culture in the world. Not wrong, not right, just different.

DH and I are believers in the trust-mistrust phase of human development, so we make our decisions with that in mind. DD was not one of those babies who slept 20 hours per day and nursed every 3 hours (she nursed around the clock and had "silent reflux" which means you have reflux but just swallow it). Anyway, I think it helped me a lot to find parents who A. faced similiar challenges, and B. chose similiar solutions or at least employed a similiar governing philosophy. Thankfully DH and I were in full agreement of what to do, otherwise I would have really doubted my mothering instincts.

P.S. I found many people here, on this site, as a lurker.

See it isn't just me!!! I had my once a week shower today. And I guess all I am trying to say is no one is perfect and everyone has their own style of parenting and I think that is great. I was never the type to have a parenting book in my house. So I never read up on the techniques. I am just the type that does it and I am perfectly happy beating to my own drum. I do remember a few friends with older kids talking my ear off about attachment parenting and it just was not for me. Power to anyone that wants to do it but wasn't my thing. Would I call what I did as typical American style? Will if typical is having your baby in the swing for the first 4 mths because she hated the crib okay than I guess so. We just worked with our child and found out what worked best for her and us. And I guess I could play the second guessing game of did I do something wrong? But I look at my DD and she is a happy even temper child that goes to bed with no problems and I have to say if I did it wrong than I will willingly take it b/c I like my end product.

Now my friends tease me b/c I actually have books in the house b/c of the GT. When I said I was waiting to read this Ruf book they nearly died. You?!? with a reference book? The world must be coming to an end. Sarcasm runs deep with my little group!