Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion 'Outliers', anyone reading it??

Its not an Asian thing, but a cultural thing in the sense of where someone comes from, what their parents did, and their parents - what is passed down and stressed from generation to generation.

All things being equal, I will hire a farm kid, musician, or ex-military over all other candidates because their background presupposes discipline, hard work, and emotional maturity - they have had to subordinate their whims to structured tasks on a daily basis - when sick, when sad, when hurt, when glad.

Gladwell looks at many ethnic groups - not just Rice Paddy farming - for examples - and it not ethnicity - but the culture that occupation brings.

My husband's schedule didn't allow him to help much. He was working full time and finishing up his degree (also full time)so he could get a higher paying job. Our son had colic and cried a lot, and wouldn't take a bottle so I hated to leave him with anyone, including his dad. I had saved up enough sick leave so that I could stay home for six weeks full time, but my son's colic lasted 3 1/2 months and this was one of the reasons I quit working. I didn't think anyone who didn't absolutely, unconditionally love my very loud colicky baby could tolerate his crying spells for any length of time.

I don't think he ever changed even one diaper.

I didn't read the book, but there seems to be a "rags to riches" theme from the comments on this thread. It makes sense that having no other choice but to work your tail off to get food on the table for your family would lead to a strong work ethic that generalizes to academics. I often wonder if my kids are, at some level, at a disadvantage, because they don't have that expectation placed on them. There's no doubt that their work ethic isn't what it would be if we had no choice but to work year-round every day. Then again, they seem happy - and I'm willing to sacrifice a little work-ethic for that.

quote from Austin:
All things being equal, I will hire a farm kid, musician, or ex-military over all other candidates because their background presupposes discipline, hard work, and emotional maturity - they have had to subordinate their whims to structured tasks on a daily basis - when sick, when sad, when hurt, when glad.

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Hooray! I once was told that the specific reason that I did NOT get a job was because I was a musician; they liked me, but they were sure that all musicians must be flakes. I just thought to myself, jeepers, you people know nothing--do you think we're born being able to play advanced repertoire, and therefore have lots of extra time to sit around drinking absinthe or whatever??

LOL.

I once trained a first-chair violinist to write code. I took a chance.

This person was self-sufficient and writing high quality software in six months. They worked 50-60 hours a week without complaint, came up with creative ideas, could read manuals for information, and listened to criticism. I have since trained four other top rate musicians ( one was Indian and one was Chinese ) who had zero knowledge of software with the same results.

First or second chair university-level musicians are an untapped gold mine.

When I talk to most other people about this, they just look at me like I am an idiot. They want to hire clones with Compusci degrees and certifications rather than go find raw talent+work ethic and then train it, then they complain about people not working hard enough or who are not creative enough. Go figure.

But, look at this way - if you could hire someone who was in the top .1% in their profession, are in their early 20s, and then retrain them, would you? Do you think they will be average or be a top performer after a while?

This is why I agree with Gladwell - I see SMART people being bested by harder workers every day where I work.

In the book he also asserts that the reason asians are good at math has everything to do with the way their language simplifies number naming, thus making the numbers much simpler to remember and hold in your mind while doing calculations. The focus almost implies that it is THE reason, forget about people having math inclination and aptitude. A little offensive IMO.

OT Happy New Year!!

I should start by admitting that I haven't read the whole book - just a few chapters while browsing in the bookshop for Christmas gifts (obviously that was one I didn't buy). It was certainly readable and interesting but, as I think others have also said, he seemed to me a bestseller writer than serious thinker. So many anecdotes, so many sweeping generalisations, unexplored assumptions and arguments full of holes (in the parts of the book that I read, anyway ). On the other hand, perhaps we smug first worlders really are about to be knocked off our perches by a tide of offspring of subsistence farmers from China. I suppose the African ones don't work quite hard enough, or was it covered in a chapter I didnt' get to? Which might also have dwelt a little on what success means, and to who? Did health and happiness get a mention anywhere? Or contribution to the greater good etc? Well, perhaps they did, and I'll try to keep an open mind pending the time I get around to reading the rest.

BTW Austin - I'm not from any of the backgrounds you mention, but seem to have managed a pretty good work ethic nonetheless. Would you go to the extreme of leaving me off a shortlist in favour of others based on assumptions re our backgrounds (all other things being equal)?

I'm thrilled to read this Austin, but wonder if most humans can copy you. Maybe my work ethic isn't as developed as it should be, but, that seems like a pretty tough schedule. How much sleep did you usually get? Was this about that same as before you became a parent? How long did you keep to this schedule? Was finding a job with a 'real' 8 hour day a problem?

Anyway, you obviously had the ability to look at parenting and find it an interesting challenge, which is to your credit. I think that's somewhat rare amoung males and females. Well Done!

Grinity

A thought on that--If what you're saying is true, then basically now he's telling us that Asian-Americans who never learned their native language will not be as "smart" as their Asia-residing counterparts?

Austin: I was never talking about work ethic (I agree with you about that), but how Gladwell seems to say Asians are smart because they're hard working, but doesn't really provide an explanation for why other countries farm, too, and aren't as good as math.