Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion May I introduce myself? (longish--OK, very long))

Welcome, Mini. I'm new here, too. People on this site are very welcoming and supportive. Love the woodpecker story. Have you been to Tofino? We spent a Christmas there. I was so excited to think your DH's name was Frenchie... figured he was Francois...

Hi Seablue!

Well, it's not his real name, unfortunately (though his real name is nice, too!) My little peanuts dressed up as the Marx Brothers for last Hallowe'en (they adore the Marx Brothers!), so I thought their names would be good aliases for a public internet forum (better than Rock, Paper, Scissors which they were this Hallowe'en!). The Marx brothers' parents were named Minnie and Frenchie, so there we go!

Tofino is pretty darned nice--what a great place to spend Christmas!

minnie

Let me get one quick lick in on that dead horse...

My problem is that you can't teach a kid to read critically if s/he never reads anything of which to be critical. Reading *only* books you agree with leads to a rather narrow (sometimes EXTREMELY narrow!) world view, and it doesn't leave any room for discussion or disagreement or changing of one's mind. That's vital for an informed and thinking person! Without it, you don't have an education; you have a brainwashing.

I just think of those times when a book says something I think is dumb or an opinion that I think is wrong as "teachable moments."

Obviously if the whole book is slanted and indefensible, I don't waste our time. But most books aren't that far off center, at least not the ones I see. And I suppose that if a person thinks all books are slanted, well, that might be a sign that the problem is NOT with the books...

Well, Kriston, I totally agree with you. I taught at a university for fifteen years, and was always dismayed, to say the least, at the number (not small) of students who either agreed with everything their book said, or automatically dismissed everything their book said (and not just the book, either--for some kids I was the guru, and for others the goat--the first ones were more pleasant to deal with, certainly, but not really any more sophisticated, I'm afraid!). I quit working six years ago, but still think often of certain individual students, and worry and wonder about them a little bit--I hope their flexibility of mind increased after they left me. I did what I could while I had them.

I love looking for resources for the kids; we're not really school-at-homers (we're ECLECTIC! <smiles at Kriston>), but I do think there is much of value out there which I would like to use, while at the same time encouraging the boys to make some choices about how we use those resources, and how each individual day unfolds. I want them to learn to think for themselves, which to me means first giving them something to think about--firewood for the flame, or whatever it says on the Hoagies site. We use Life of Fred, for instance, among many other things (mostly story books and math histories, plus Don Cohen's calculus books) for Harpo's math, while Groucho uses Miquon; we love the Michael Clay Thompson language arts books, and are in the second year of those; the Ralph Fletcher books about writing are wonderful; we like Minimus, Learning Latin through Mythology, and Esopus Hodie for Latin; and we're just getting going on Pierre Berton's history for young Canadians series. Berton is a perfect example of an opportunity for discussion, I think--he was much pooh-poohed by academic historians, and his books are not generally used in the schools any more, but the man could really write, and he knew how to tell a ripping yarn--I think we'll have a good time with these, and there will also be spots for some of your "teachable moments" in there.

As to the people who think "all books are slanted, well, that might be a sign that the problem is NOT with the books..." (sorry, I haven't figured out the quote function yet)--some of these folks that I know here think also that children should not be subjected to bedtime, guidance about choosing nutritious food, be taught to share or speak and act courteously, but that they should be left to discover the value of all those things on their own, eventually--so I suppose those playdates might in the end be quite a bit more trouble than they're worth! But I do wish we could find a few more kids whose parents' political agendas allowed them to kick a ball around with my little funnies once in a while......Ah well, it will all come in time, I'm sure.

OK, I guess that horse really is dead now!

Thanks for the helpful words--and good luck with your novel! I'm really intrigued by this November project you've got going.

minnie

I taught for 5 years in a Big 10 university, and I had the same reaction. <shudder>

In my experience--just as in yours--critical thinking is not on the radar of most high school graduates, and that scares me. If people learn anything in school, I'd want them to learn how to think for themselves. I always told my freshman composition students that that analytical writing class was the most important class they would take in college because they were going to learn how to read, think critically, and write, and those are skills that they will need no matter who they are or what they do in life. They never believed me, but it was what I honestly believed. I, too, did my best to help them get there. To mixed results... *sigh*



I'm sure this is a dumb question, but you have checked out homeschooling groups in your area, right? I assume that's where you found the unschoolers, but so many people are surprised to hear that there are groups around that I thought I'd throw that out there just to be sure.

For our part, I've been a lot more diligent about making playdates with kids in traditional school this year, too. (This in addition to a standing weekly playdate with one very good HSing friend who is also GT--and I recommend such an arrangement if you can find a good fit.) For some reason, it seems easier this year (our second year of HSing, too) to find "mainstream" people who accept our homeschooling--have considered it themselves, even!--and sympathize with what we're doing and why. They seem to be seeking me out to discuss the option, so I haven't even had to go out of my way to find them; they find me! We've also been having playdates with neighbors, soccer teammates, and old friends from when DS7 was in public school at least a couple of times a week. (We do live in a very HSing-friendly area though. It's a relatively common choice, and my kids are generally better-behaved than most kids in the world, so they tend to be well-received by kids and parents alike.)

You might also try a local GT support group, if there is one. Even if it's geared to parents with kids in the public schools, it might offer some good connections for you. Ours has been good for me in that regard.

Those are just a couple of things that have been working for us, in case you haven't gone those routes yet. Feel free to ignore if it's dumb advice. Different areas are so different about this sort of thing. We are treated pretty well by friends and neighbors, and even by strangers who hear that we're homeschooling, but I know that's NOT the case in a lot of places. Choosing to homeschool all too often equates to having the plague. It's been a major relief to me that this has not been our experience.

Okay, I REALLY have to stop posting and write! I look forward to your presence on the forum, Minnie. It seems like we have a lot in common!

Can I get one more in on the dead horse??

(Nice to "meet" you Minnie! We're homeschoolers too!)

Most of the most-radical unschoolers I've met -- the ones that don't want my textbook cooties rubbing off on them -- aren't actually concerned about textbook bias as much as they are about spoiling the joy of natural discovery. They don't want their kids to be told anything they might discover on their own. And actually thinking back, when their kids do discover something the parents don't always seem to have ~any~ kind of concern for the bias in what they've discovered.... I'm remembering a particularly badly-done history fair project... eek! Anyway I can appreciate the joy of discovery, but I think at least in our situation there's been plenty to discover (and plenty of joy) without being excessive about it.

There was one mom here who was bemoaning her DS's test scores (required standardized testing for homeschoolers aged 7-16 in NC) because he had done all the math problems as addition. Not because he couldn't understand math, but he had never seen a minus sign and didn't know what it meant. Not that I think it's really a huge deal in the long run, and she knew he understood subtracting in "real life," but I don't completely see the point of going out of your way to avoid the topic until he discovers it himself. I know with DS he would have been furious to find out that I knew all about minus signs and never mentioned it.

So we'll go with "eclectic" here too I think our style would actually be best described as "collaborative"... We're not completely child-led and not completely mom-led, but we work together, and our route mostly comes out of our best areas of overlap.

Anyway, welcome!

Okay ... talk about opening up the can of worms here ... I totally agree with both of you by the way. I brought it up because I have come across the radical and Kriston ... you are absolutely right about critical thinking and I too often wonder about the kids of the radical people I have come across. I believe I have used the exact words of 'brainwashed' to my hubby a few times. I certainly was not trying to take their side on the issue but from what I was reading it was a complaint that I was trying to shed light on why they chose not to use textbooks, but thanks to minniemarx responses it is clear I did not even have to, she gets it.

Oh, sure, no worries, KM. It's just a serious and interesting issue you raised. Take it as a compliment that we took your ball and ran with it.

For my part, our nation's general inability/unwillingness to try to see that there's more than one point of view in the world and the general lack of critical thinking skills are two of my greatest personal concerns with the way the world is heading. When these subjects come up, I always feel like an old lady going on and on about "the problems with kids these days," yet I go on and on anyway! They can just keep their balls out of my yard, too, why don't they...

So, yeah, no worries.

I think you're right, Erica, about the joy of discovery stuff. Right down the line, I think you're right about why people choose that route, right about why it isn't right for us just as it isn't right for you, right, right, right! Good analysis. Thanks for that.

Integrity does not come from always being right. Nor does progress.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself � and you are the easiest person to fool."

Very few books go over the false starts before a theory was formed and finally accepted. Plate Tectonics and the Milankovitch Theory are two recent examples of paradigms that were resisted by the status quo in which a whole lot of "science" had to be thrown out.

I really love this book as it presents the give and take of just such a journey. They leave a lot of the nastiness out of the picture. But, its all too real, even when it comes to the hard sciences. Its a very readable book.

http://www.amazon.com/Ice-Ages-Solv...mp;s=books&qid=1225678676&sr=8-1

One comment on unschooling.

The lack of a rigorous treatment of some subjects REALLY hurt me once I got into academia and then into industry. Being an autodidact is fine, but at some point, if one is serious about learning, one MUST become rigorous. One idea must lead to another and then to another and all the connections must be on a firm foundation AND one must know the minutiae and the underpinnings of ideas as well as seeking out and dealing with criticisms.

To really explore a subject or develop a technical, social, or business case, one must critically wrestle with difficult ideas and recapitulate very hard expositions. This is much, much more difficult than just going though a textbook, which is really just a spoonfeeding, but a necessary one.

And one must often develop a textbook-like work to provide training for operators or to codify the knowledge so that results are repeatable. The training of doctors and airline pilots depends heavily and without exception on the orderly accumulation knowlege. Even the basics of life - farming - are heavily dependent on codified knowledge.

I understand the intent of unschooling, but I am not sure the end goal ( a vital analytic and joyful mind ) is realistic without the introduction and adherence to rigor at some point in the process.