Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment What steps to take.....

Long time lurker but MAN you guys have great info!!!

Ok - I have a 4th grader who's been in the her school's GT program since third grade. They test in November of 2nd grade year.

Here's my question or situation or trauma - depending on the day -

I have a 2nd grader who blows what his sibling was doing 2nd grade out of the water! Honestly. He won't be tested until November and wouldn't be able to start the GT (weekly pullout) until next year. We have the standard p/t conference set in a few weeks. His teacher has already told me that he "blew his MAP scores out of the water". All of them. He is so bored. He completes his homework at school. He tells me that his math homework is boring and for "little kids". He has gotten 100% on every spelling test. The only time he has missed a math question is when he races through the test, because he said it was boring, and completely missed questions. As in - he didn't do them because he skipped right over them He is reading 3 or so grade levels above. He has already met his AR goal for the first half of the year. You get the idea.

I really want to initiate some change. We did this a few years ago when my older one was in first grade. Yes, it started out all sunshiney -pulled into older grades for various subjects but slowly that stopped. I really want to have my stuff together when I approach the teacher/school. The other day my son saw me reading an article on-line about grade acceleration and he asked me what that was. I told him that sometimes a student moves up a grade when the school determines that the curriculum in the next grade up would be a better fit for them. He said "I want to do that!"

I'm sorry to be so all over the place but my mind is racing. I need to get my ducks in a row. Do I initiate something right now? My gut says yes. Do I email the teacher and cc the principal about a student study meeting or something. I think I've heard that term used on this board. With my oldest we ended up going through her school counselor and then the principal got involved and the school's instructional coach. The IC ended up testing my oldest. I am also considering having my 2nd grader take the CTY test. I thought this could be used as back-up however by the time we get results we will be into 2009. I want action now.

What would the wise parents here do?

Welcome az1, glad you decided to join us.

Well you asked what wise parents would do, but I'll answer anyway(har har har).

Personally, I like to have as much information as possible before I go in.
Who will you start with?
Perhaps you could find out what your state position on gifted education and id is. Not that you need it at this point, it's just good to know.
I would also recommend that you find out your district policies if you don't already know them.
The teacher involved sounds like she gets what's going on. Perhaps you can ask her opinion, or what is available.
I would not wait for conference unless it is next week!
Questions you could ask:
"You mentioned that _________ blew his tests out of the water(parapharasing! ). Can you tell me more about that?
What does that mean? What is he supposed to know for _____ grade? Could he know it already?

Also, if you have a friendly relationship with counselor, perhaps that person can help again.

Good luck!

Welcom az1, always nice to meet a long-time-lurker!

Exactly how high were those MAP tests?
I would insist that he be placed (subject or full skip) in the class where he could be expected to learn new material in the subjects that were on the MAP test. He doesn't have to be moved until he's 'Average' in that class - just so that a B is assured, but he would have to do 'some' work to keep his As.

Don't put any eggs in the pull-out basket!That isn't the LOG (level of gifted) kid you have. Once he's grade skipped to his readiness level, then that grades pull out will be nice 'icing on the cake.'

Order the "Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual" - it's an interesting read - but in a school with MAP testing and a gifted program already in place you can have him placed at his readiness level NOW. They already have enough information.

We also didn't have the kind of stabilty with subject accelerations that we got from a full grade skip.

As for social needs - it's a dice roll, so in our family ignore what we can't control. Certianly the younger the children are one would hope the easier it would be to make new friends. If your 2nd grader is that excited by the prospect, then he clearly isn't worried about the social end. And there are always afterschool activities that he can do with agemates - they are a lot of fun! (they, the activities and the agemates)

Seriously, that MAP is an amazing test - call up the testmakers and have them send you a report on your children scores, so you can compare one to another (secretely - it's one way to get an idea of LOG) - talk to them - they are very helpful. You school has ZERO leg to stand on if it wants to say your kid isn't ready for more challenge. See if they will show you a graph of how the 2nd grade kids and the 3rd grade kids and the 4th grade kids are doing - no names, just data points, so you can see overall where your kids fits....

Smiles, so glad you spoke up, you are home, you can get some rest now, ok?

Grinity

Thanks for all of the great info!

I emailed his teacher and asked for his MAP scores in all subjects. She responded that "she would give me all that information at the conference, Thanks!" Hmm.. Kinda sounds like a brush off or a bit passive aggressive. Our conference is a week from today -Friday. I feel the tension already.

I ordered the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual. I don't think it will arrive in time for the conference. I want to be prepared. What testing do they (IAS) recommend in order to complete the IAS? I want to have my ducks in a row on conference day and be able to request the tests be given by the instructional coach. Is there anywhere on the web where I can find the essential parts of the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual so that I have them for the conference? Does anyone have them scanned as a file?

My 2nd grader has a January birthday so age is not really a big deal. He is also the tallest kid in class - always has been.

My major focus is to have all the information I need for the conference, have it organized and ready to present to them. Ideally I would like to hear what the teacher has to say, present our observations, bring our the Iowa Acceleration forms, request the tests needed and request that a grade acceleration be formally considered.

I am planning on calling the district today and asking about their grade acceleration policies. Who know what I am going to hear.

Grinity - i called the MAPS people and they told me that I could not get a copy of my child's test, that I had to get it from the school. Any insight? Is there someone at the company I need to ask for to get my own copy of his test report?

Any tips for the conference or resources you can point me to?

az, I would not address acceleration at conference. In our district, our conferences are scheduled for 15 minutes.

This is not a typical situation and may require more than 15 minutes to discuss.

My recommendation is to go to the conference since it's pretty close and just listen. Don't suggest anything. You can bring a notebook if you like, that way you can write down anything she says for future reference. Ex: we were shown an assessment, but not allowed to take it with us.

See what she says and what the plans are to accomodate. Then regroup with family and decide how to proceed.

This will also give you time to get together the info you want from the acceleration scale.

Advocation is not an instantaneous process.

Pace yourself and keep coming back to the board when you need to.

I'm glad you are investigating the policies. Perhaps you can also find out where the policies are printed. EX, handout, at discrict office, online. I've found it helpful to read the actual policy myself instead of relying on other people to interpret it for me. In fact, I probably could have saved myself a headache or two if I had gotten a hold of the copy before I even started advocating. Good luck with the phone call.

az1,

I completely sympathize with what you're feeling. I'm relatively new to the GT issues, but DW and I have taken a crash course... Here's what I've learned, take it for what it's worth.

Like incogneato mentions, the process moves far more slowly that you want it to. Painfully slow.

Only use email and phone to schedule an in-person meeting, not to discuss details. I learned this early on when a phone call wasn't going very well and I couldn't read the other person's body language. Similarly, it is too easy to read emotion into emails that may or may not be there. (Case in point, I bet the teacher thought she was addressing your request and didn't intend for it to be a brush-off).

Be as prepared as you can with your information but only pull out what you'll need.

Learn your local regs. In PA it's relatively easy for us as we have well known state regs that can trump local policies.

Have multiple meetings with multiple people. You're trying to tip over a refrigerator and it's going to take some rocking back and forth. Personally, I'd start with your teacher after the conference requesting a follow up meeting with her. (But that's us and our situation). We also have another department that deals with special services (GT and students that need other accommodations). If you have a similar department, schedule a Q-and-A meeting with them as well.

If you have the time and energy, start giving your child "after school" work. I think Grinty has mentioned this before. We're pretty open with our child and he loves that we periodically give him "complex math". And we tell him that we're working on getting him complex math at school too.

Good luck. You'll definitely find a lot of people here that have BTDT (been there done that).

JB

Ahhhhhhh, the force is strong in this one.......

JB- you can call me neato.

Hi az1. I agree with 'Neato that you should listen to what the teacher proposes. Try to gauge what the school thinks and see what they are offering. I don't think that means that you shouldn't be advocating your little heart out. Quite the contrary. I just think that it is best to know what the school has in mind as the possible options in order to know how hard to push. If you start the conversation by pushing very hard, then schools often clamp on the brakes and digs in their heels. The best approach seems to be, IMHO, asking enough questions that you steer the school down whatever path you think is necessary, but in such a way that the school thinks it is their idea to begin with.

So start the conversation with a question like, 'How is my son doing in school?' or 'What do you feel my son needs in order to be challenged at school?' Let them make a few suggestions.

We were in the same boat just one year ago, although it was my DS(then 7)'s teacher that initiated the process. She sat down at the p/t conference in Oct. with all of her data supporting the opinion that DS should not be in 2nd grade. Her approach was to give him the end of the year 2nd grade tests in all subjects. (math, science, reading, writing, social studies, spelling... ) That was the best was to see that there was really nothing for him to learn in the 3/4 of 2nd grade left in the year.

So if your son's teacher is wishy-washy on the subject of what your child knows, you might ask in a sweet voice, "Would it be possible for you to give DS the end of the year tests for 2nd grade in order to determine what he knows?" This is something that she can do on the spot, so to speak, without a lot of additional work. The slowest part of this process is waiting for the school to give an IQ test like the WISC-IV, and then waiting for the results, and then waiting for the school to decide what the results mean. (you get the picture!) But she has those end of the year test already, and they take very little time to do a couple pages of math or reading. It will at least give you some ammunition for the ensuing salvo.

The only other thing that I can add is that getting the school to move on these things takes forever. At least it did with us. Good luck. Let us know how the p/t conference goes.

You know, now that I think about my response, I realize that you already have some data with the MAP scores. The problem is that my school doesn't do MAP scores, and so I don't know very much about them. Are the achievement type test scores or IQ scores? The ultimate question is how high a ceiling the MAP scores have in order to show the school what they are dealing with here. My child took the Iowa Basic Skills Test and the Cog Apt in first grade for entrance into the gifted program. But even though he scored off the charts on these tests, the school did not understand what he need in order to be challenged. Those tests did not go high enough to show where he was. The school merely looked at the results, said 'Wow, he is a bright boy!" and continued doing what they were doing. After all, they think that they do a fine job teaching bright kids. Somehow you have to get them to admit that sometimes kids need more than the average serving size of learning.

So, bottom line is... I don't quite know enough about MAP scores to be able to say anything intelligent. How is that for a conclusion!

Well, hopefully, she can but this hinges on the district policies. Ex: our district doesn't really want to accelerate. So when DD's second grade teacher supported a grade skip, she was pretty much shut down.

To this day I'm to understand that there really aren't any tests to assess whether or not a student is promoted. Huh?

Now, that's actually something I can turn around and bury my principal with; but I won't. Any gain that could come of it is not worth the fallout. The point is that you are heading up a slippery slope.

I agree with JB and E-beth and will just add another simple but important thought: When in doubt, keep you lip zipped. If you are getting to a place that is non-productive, you will know it. In fact, if you are starting to become agitated during the conversations that's a magic sign to stop talking and start taking mental notes. Hash it out later and you never have to make a decision or accept a solution the first time you hear it in a meeting.