Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion I feel like a failure

First of all, hello to everyone on this forum! I found this place on an internet search a few months ago and I'm glad it exists.

I am probably extremely gifted. I have this specific problem, and I'm increasingly realizing that it all ties back fundamentally to my giftedness and some attributes of my personality. I'm in my early-mid 20s, and I increasingly feel lost and like a failure.

I've tried talking to counselors/therapists about this, and they really don't understand what I mean, and I feel it's impossible to bridge the gap. Because I actually have a lot of achievements to speak of, but it makes me feel more conflicted than satisfied. I am given to understand that many average people feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction from their areas of strength and their achievements, but I feel more of a sense of isolation and confusion.

For some background: When I was a child, I was clearly quite intelligent. My first school placed me in an advanced group where they taught reading and math two grade levels above, and I was still very bored and found it very easy. I would time attack the math, solving in 15-30 minutes (for 70-minute tests), doing most of the math in my head, and competing with a few others to try to submit my paper first. I would try to invent math problems, and I figured out mental math to the point where I was faster than all the kids who took abacus classes (as I later got to know) using my own intuitive methods. I would also ask good questions -- for example, at age 8 I asked an engineer (a family friend) whether the size of the infinity on a number line between 0 and 1/2 should be half that of that between 0 and 1. He replied that it wasn't, and that the sizes of the infinities was the same (I got to know why in college: they are both countably infinite.) It's like I was very aware, and had this wondrous world inside my head to which I would escape whenever I had the chance.

I read Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (which is around 750 pages) when I was 7, and I could probably read at 600-800 wpm. I know it's not a terribly difficult book to read, but in general I feel like most books did not faze me past a point unless they had scientific explanations or something which were difficult. I wrote a hundred page story (incomplete though, and it was nothing special in terms of content or plot) when I was 8.

After that, I was not accelerated throughout the rest of school. I still tried to keep up with my initial precocity, but without any guidance or teaching, there was only so much I could do. In high school, I did try out the math olympiad and got to the national level (and did get supplementary math education), but I wasn't really interested and didn't work for it after that. It also made me deeply uncomfortable that other kids seemed to be much slower to understand "obvious" concepts. I rationalized that everyone could actually learn much faster than what was taught in class if they opened their eyes and "saw" the concepts as just putting into words obvious observations, such as the parabolic path of a ball in air -- everyone plays sports, so they know it intuitively, right? It's just a matter of translation...

Another thing: Since 5th grade, I explicitly had this awareness that school and college was a series of hoops. My parents told me that, yes, school was a series of hoops, but the world is like that, and you have to pass through those in order to get into a good college where you can shine. And now, it seems like it's hoops all the way down, and that the world is made for disciplined people who grind and get very good at particular subjects so that they're useful to society, not weirdos like me.

I went to a top math college, but didn't actually like abstract math -- I still graduated, though. It was also during this time that I finally accepted the validity of IQ, because I saw all the studies (CHC theory etc.) and realized that at a statistical level, it was undeniable. But it was a very painful realization. I also got really interested in music, and started playing an instrument, which I got into to the point where I wanted to make it a career -- but at this point it was all self-taught, and by the time I got a teacher, I was two decades behind everyone else who was taking this seriously -- so no matter how good I got, I would still be average because of how late I started in all likelihood.

So now I'm in this position. When someone compliments me on picking up a skill fast, I don't feel anything, maybe some guilt or regret for not actually amounting to anything. Some anger at the world and a sense of isolation and almost discrimination which I can't really convey to people -- I mean, after all, life does suck for everyone, so it's not like I'm being disproportionately discriminated against. I got interested in stuff too late, and didn't have proper teaching, and although I did do very well from what I could (largely) teach myself, I can only help but feel that my life could have been completely different with good coaching and if I trained at something properly since childhood. The closest I got to that was math, and I still feel a bit guilty about quitting it, but how could I sustain it without real interest?

Sorry for the long post. I really hope to get some responses -- no one I know is in a similar situation to mine, and talking to mental health professionals makes me realize that I'm in a very small minority which they (most) can not serve. I actually think that given everything I'm worried about, I'm holding up surprisingly well. And that I do have legitimate grievances, even though no one seems to understand it because on the surface, I am pretty successful (anyone good at math can make a high six-figure salary nowadays if they sell their soul :/). But it gets very difficult to make sense of everything when literally the only person who can help you or give you advice is yourself.

Welcome!

First, let me affirm that you do have accomplishments--and I refer not so much to the typical career and academic markers, but that you have managed to maintain some level of optimism that this (your existing degree, career, earnings, etc.) is not all there is. The psychic restlessness that you describe isn't entirely a bad thing, even if it may cause you some distress at times, as it has also inspired you to continue growing, learning, and exploring new fields and interests, seeking something more than external markers of success.

Second, I would encourage you not to view pursuits such as music as something in which you are two decades behind. (And I'll note that there are some areas where intensive formal training is not even recommended by all teachers until entering adulthood--for example, many vocal coaches of the bel canto school will not begin formal instruction of male vocalists until they are 18.) Instead of regretting the years when you were not training in a particular area, take some gratification in growth and forward progress in the present, and in the delight of the study itself. Regardless of ability, everyone has the same 24 hours a day, which necessarily limits the maximal development of every potential in a multipotentiality individual. This is not personal failure, just a practical manifestation of being finite creatures restricted in time and space.

Not to mention, the assumption that you cannot "catch up" to those who started in childhood is not necessarily accurate. Amelita Galli-Curci, the Spanish-Italian coloratura, was a conservatory trained pianist, but a self-taught singer until she was well established in her concert career. The Russian composer Alexander Borodin was a professor of chemistry and medicine, but a self-taught composer who began studies with a musician only in his late 20s.

And with regard to "amounting to anything," this is more metaphysical than otherwise. What determines your value? You have already established that it is not your financial earnings or your academic credentials. Respectfully (without knowing your faith, political or philosophical leanings), I would encourage you to reflect on your own values, and to observe those around you who appear to have a sense of purpose and life satisfaction not based on shallow accomplishments. They may or may not be your intellectual peers, but if their experience of success, satisfaction and community arises from something other than accomplishments, there may still be gleanings for you.

Glad you found the forum, giftedamateur!

You've already received great thoughts from aeh.


I'll just add that gifted persons such as yourself may benefit from consulting with a professional who specializes in gifted issues (and may themselves be gifted with high IQ). The lists and information on the Hoagies Gifted Education Page may be a good starting place: https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm. A professional who specializes in giftedness may have a better understanding of this large yet invisible part of one's self-identity, the lack of validation and affirmation which many gifted persons experience, its impact upon existential issues, and patterns of thought related to self-improvement, professional development, belonging, self-acceptance, over-thinking and second-guessing.

Hoagies also lists some interesting books by known authors who specialize in gifted.

In my observation and experience, as most people live and learn their interests change and evolve. Which is to say that had someone come alongside you with intense music coaching and lessons when you were younger, your own personal discovery of an interest in music may have been thwarted. Your internal, visceral response to music may have been overwhelmed or drowned out by a system of external rewards for practicing and performing at an early age. Have you heard of Tiger Parenting? (wikipedia link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_parenting ) Related to this is Amy Chua's book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" and the Wall Street Journal's article discussing the book (wikipedia link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Hymn_of_the_Tiger_Mother)

Aeh and Indigo have eloquently given sage advice - I only have a few peripheral thoughts to add.

Whilst society often celebrates and rewards those who are at the top of their game, it can be personally rewarding to be a ‘Jack/Jill of many trades & master of none’. A more positive term which my son uses is ‘polymath’. He’s never had a competitive spirit, it’s always about PBs and self improvement and so his progress is largely self determined and with access to digital resources, less prone to being thwarted.

Broad knowledge and skill sets are invaluable for problem solving in the workplace and at different levels of society. It is possible to derive great personal satisfaction from being instrumental in solving problems that would otherwise impact lives even without formal external recognition.

It is interesting to read articles on interviews with one of this year’s Fields medal recipients - by his accounts, June Huh ‘wandered’ through high school and undergrad university, spending time writing poetry and developing music appreciation and only started earnestly focusing on mathematics during his postgrad years. His broadened experience seems to have positively shaped his approach to mathematics & life. I’m not suggesting that you should rekindle an interest in maths if you don’t have any real interest, but I hope you find the right interests and opportunities.

I do know several brilliant mathematicians (international olympians, university medallists) who sought senior academic or tenured research careers in mathematics but settled for well paid jobs in the financial sector. I’ve had a number of serious & heartfelt discussions with my son about the different values and rewards of jobs that are productive vs extractive in the context of wider society. I share your discouragement at the lack of apparent opportunities for you to exercise your abilities for mutual personal and societal benefit. I can only urge you to keep your mind open for opportunities to learn, grow and help others.

I'm curious what your current interests and experiences include, and what events surrounded your recent interest in music as a career. What steps have you taken to assess your competitiveness in music with objective sources?

As aeh has suggested, life satisfaction comes from living in alignment with our values. It's important to know yours. You might find Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning" a helpful tool in becoming attuned to what gives you a sense of purpose. The Stoic philosophers, like Marcus Aurelius ("Meditations"), are another excellent resource to help you consider your values system.

To an extent, polymaths just have to choose a lane and commit for a time to determine fit (Newton's method for life). In your early-20s, you won't have a sense of the degree to which life is fluid, or the extent to which new paths can be forged (and with what success or difficulty). Many of us here have multiple graduate degrees - and multiple careers. It can be done, and it's common. However, it does require letting go of the idea of being "best", because anything new demands a beginner's outlook. Get honest with yourself about what you're valuing - is it internally or externally mediated? Chances are, it's both.

Suggest you keep a journal of interesting articles you encounter or thoughts that arise. You'll start seeing patterns in areas that are tangential to your math studies that do intrigue you. If music is a fit for you, it will feature prominently.

It's easy when your life has been a predetermined path to find yourself rudderless when the initial offering feels lackluster. You're unaccustomed to having the degree of agency you currently enjoy. Don't shy away from that power.

From an evolutionary perspective, humans are only just dipping a toe into the pool of actualization. The challenge of finding deep intellectual purpose - at a population level - is an artefact of the last 200 years, and even then for only some cultures. Personally, I think actualization can only ever be achieved indirectly in pursuit of our core values, not as an end in and of itself.

How can you make this process easier? Do difficult things every day. Physically challenging tasks that shut down mental chatter and require mindfulness are effective for me. Practice doing something daily that you know you will fail at. Learn to crave failure and the opportunity to do better the next time. When new skills come easily, frustration tolerance is the relatively undeveloped skill. The path you're on will require courage and grit to navigate. You may have to shed the skin you've lived in, or stich together a new one that you would never have imagined would fit. The only way to the other side is through the fire.

You can do it.

I have been that person, to an extent. I always wanted to be able to learn and do things on my own, to a large part because I was self-aware that I was simply not getting appropriate instruction, and I really did not want to stagnate. To be honest, it's nothing special, but I did learn math, could write quite well on my own, figured out table tennis by playing with friends although I didn't really have an athletic talent, learned how to play the piano, and there's a bunch of stuff I don't list because I just passively keep up to date with stuff like psychology or philosophy or some random thing I didn't know I knew until it crops up in conversation. I would say I have a rather passable understanding of philosophy, for example.

It's really hard for me to assess my own ability when it comes to a field, though, and instead, I tend to assume the worst. After all, there's hordes of people with 4-year degrees out there, and it almost seems insulting to them to imply that I have a comparable understanding, so I assume by default that I don't. It's kind of hard to explain -- it's easy enough to read research papers in many fields, and psychology in particular, I find. Since I don't put in effort, I don't feel like I've learned anything, but I probably know more than I let on. I feel more confused than anything about why certain things feel difficult to people, and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that there is indeed perhaps some part of it that I'm missing by nature of me not having formally studied that subject, which might make it hard.

What I mean to say is that I feel, at least subjectively, that I can pick up most college textbooks, and read and understand them just fine without trying too hard. And constantly reading about stuff online makes it so that I have a certain passive knowledge base and certain skills. I'm rather confident that I can pick up a new subject and sort of learn it pretty fast.

But it doesn't feel like "real learning". College most certainly doesn't feel like real learning -- I am doing a Masters' degree and it's pretty damn easy. Well, I don't quite know what hard is supposed to feel like. But I can get an A in the classes by going through the slides and assignments a day before the exam (in computer science) without having attended classes. But perhaps college courses are supposed to be easy. I know several others who seem to leave their studying for the last day and still do fine, so maybe the course is indeed very easy.

So, being a polymath of sorts, I start to feel like I haven't done anything with my life, because if only I could dedicate a serious amount of time and study to something, I might be "actually" good at it, and that might feel meaningful. Being a jack of all trades feels kind of pointless. Sure, you could add one more "useless" skill to your toolbox: so what? You could speedrun any number of Coursera courses (which is something I've kind of done before), and you have new "information", but later on you realize that in order to improve yourself, you need a higher level of challenge, not just more of the same. It feels like you're atrophying, like how it would feel if your elementary school teacher simply gave you more instances of a problem you had mastered as extra work to keep you busy.

I wonder if others here share this experience.

Currently, I'm on my way to becoming a programmer (because I haven't been able to figure out anything else in my life, so why not I guess).

My interest in piano started about 5 years ago, although I only managed to get a teacher last year. It started when someone showed me a video of someone playing a song I knew well on the piano, and I was awestruck by the realization that you could play 3 or more different textures/voices at the same time at the piano, effectively imitating an orchestra. I really wanted to learn the piano, but people repeatedly told me it could not be done as an adult. So I figured I had nothing to lose by applying my idiosyncratic way of learning to this new thing, and it worked, better than pretty much anyone I know who's been self-taught.

Then, once I started shopping around for a teacher, it seems like teachers don't quite know what to say or how to react. In general, the consensus seems to be: It's incredible to get so far for someone learning on their own regardless of whether it's a child or an adult, and doubly so for someone who's an "adult" (well, still in my 20s), that I was able to teach myself fairly decent technique but it's certainly not as good as someone who had a very good teacher and foundation. That if only I had started as a child. Because we all know adults can never get really good at the piano.

But I play *poorly* by any objective standard! And this is frustrating me immensely. I get different feedback from different teachers. A teacher said that I was sort of playing at a university level (but I'm not sure if I can trust that). My current teacher thinks that I am indeed a beginner, but I do have some talent, and I've been working on basic technique, while simultaneously working on intermediate/advanced pieces. University professors will think I suck and don't have a foundation and should have started as a child, and ordinary teachers have no clue how to teach someone like me.

It depends on how difficult the careers are. I think most careers are not that hard, someone for example can easily become a programmer in 1-2 years, or a manager if they do an MBA. If you already have a ton of experience in one field, you can jump to a related field.

But it feels like doing anything *interesting* in the world takes over a decade of solid effort invested in something, since childhood. Most jobs seem to be mundane, plug-and-play affairs where your job is to understand a not-so-complex system and do what's already been done.

I do things all the time I know I will fail at. The problem I have is that there's only so many hours in a day, that I'm not "talented" so I need to put in some 5-10 years of effort to get good at anything. And becoming world class is just not on the cards because I started 20 years too late. I feel like anything "big" I can contribute will already have been done by someone who started way earlier, and anything "small" seems pointless because it could have been done by anyone, so it's not using your talents at all.

I'm going to save you some time by delivering a few hard truths. It would likely take several years in therapy for you to reach this point, as therapists aren't so blunt. Consider this a gift of knowledge that will save you from wasting your young life, not criticism.

1. Talent is only developed meaningfully with significant time and effort. There's no magic bullet. You have to put in the time on task if you expect proficiency in any career or pursuit.

You might have heard the expression "hard work beats talent when talent isn't working hard." A minimum threshold of talent is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition. I suspect you have met or exceeded that threshold, so effort will drive your results.

2. As to jobs being boring - many are. The interesting jobs go to the people who create organizations and build new visions, and employees are hired to fill gaps.

Even interesting careers will require some grunt work to develop foundational skills and build relationships. Either decide to invest the time to become proficient or choose differently. The world doesn't lack for interesting challenges to solve. If you stick with a path, even a moderate level of skill will likely give you access to interesting work. If you don't like what's on offer, start your own firm. Life is flexible.

3. I hear a lot of fear of failure in your post, which is a form of perfectionism.

It's not uncommon for very bright people who haven't been challenged to set false binary standards (in your case, world class or nothing.) Statistically, your odds of being world-class at anything in your early 20s are close to zero, so dispense with that unhelpful mindset. Aim for very good.

A common deflection is to dismiss available options as being not interesting or challenging enough. These are ego defenses, not rational thinking. Beginner jobs are for beginners. You haven't earned the next level until you pass through the early stage.

4. You're never going to be a child again, so stop wasting energy lamenting what could have been. If piano is something you value, build a plan with realistic goals and stick to it. Any piano teacher with a BMus can provide this at your level. As you progress, you can get referrals to more advanced instruction, or simply enjoy the fruits of your effort. Both are valid options.

5. As to "big" vs "small" successes: big achievements are only possible through a series of small ones. No one summits a mountain in ten steps.

6. Reading the resources I shared upthread will help you organize your values, which will go a long way to giving you a sense of purpose and direction.

7. Volunteering is another valuable way to build purpose and identify problems you'd like to solve. Brilliant ideas seldom come out of thin air. They're often the product of experience and grinding against systems and processes that don't function well. Getting out of your own head and taking a broader perspective would do you good.

Good luck.

Thank you for your reply, and I think your points are worth pondering over, but, that said, some questions come to mind:
I wouldn't mind this so much if the investment wasn't so high. If you need to spend 5-10,000 hours working on something for uncertain reward, even if you're talented, that becomes very difficult to do. Increasingly, it seems like almost every field is like that. And as gifted children, we don't end up realizing this unless we were challenged immensely as kids, and once we're adults, it's too late to put in that kind of effort simply because there isn't enough time left, and I can't help but feel bitter about that fact. Again, I'm passable at a lot of things, I might be able to get into grad school for whatever I studied, and maybe a number of other topics if they didn't weigh so heavily on having a related degree, because I can easily self-study the material, and most fields are not really hard at the Masters level to study on your own if that makes sense. I've had friends doing grad school in math, and I think many of them shared this sentiment.

There have been studies where they have showed that the top 10% of an already very gifted population does much better than the others. All of these talented people do work hard when they actually get into professions, such as in grad school from what I've seen -- yes, theoretically, they could be working harder. They only spend 2-4 hours a day. But I've tried putting in more hours than that, but I fail every time because my mind does not cooperate with 8 hours of solid effort a day. So I don't see myself out-working them.

From what I've seen, this is not true. Beginner jobs often waste time, time that could be spent learning, and I think your time might be better spent getting a better education, improving your skill set and gunning directly for difficult jobs. I know that you're well-meaning in the sense of it being the way the world works, but I don't think it's optimal is all. Bill Gates went to college, came up with his own algorithm for sorting in freshman year, quit college and directly went into founding a company, for example, and he didn't get into a beginning job. Did he earn the next level, or did he just go for it?

My current piano teacher has a doctorate. It doesn't give me that satisfaction, maybe because I have so much experience being that very precocious kid that I can't get over the feeling that I've lost something. Like my achievements at a younger age were so much more impressive from an objective standpoint. Now I'm realizing that interest or passion is a sham, and can't replace pure hard work. So even if you grow up learning something you hate to a high level, you will be better at that than something you pick up afterwards, even though you hate the former and love the latter.

True, but the small successes need to be the right ones, in the right order, for them to build up to something bigger. You need to know which successes to pursue which will actually get you up the mountain, and that is not easy to tell. You often see that successful people have this kind of "insider information".

I think the problem here isn’t about hours if practice or beginner jobs or starting something in childhood or whatever. The problem is that growing up is a very hard thing to do.

You’ve been given wonderful advice by every person here who replied to you. The way your responses are written tells me that you need to do some growing up. This means learning to accept that working hard is an essential part of success. It means accepting that the beginner jobs you look down on are actually the foundation of the advanced ones. You may not see this yet because, lacking the essential skills that are gained from working in a fast food joint or in a retail shop, you can’t see their value.

So, the thing here is that you have to grow up. This involves accepting that your future is largely your responsibility. It involves accepting that if you want ever to feel that you’ve accomplished something meaningful, you’re going to have to put in 8 hours a day. It involves accepting that nothing worth having comes easily.

Growing up is hard. It involves throwing away many juvenile ideas in favor of accepting hard truths. This process isn’t easy for anyone. I wish you well.