Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 144 guests, and 11 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Word_Nerd93, jenjunpr, calicocat, Heidi_Hunter, Dilore
    11,421 Registered Users
    April
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3 4 5 6
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27
    28 29 30
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
    Joined: Mar 2011
    Posts: 358
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Mar 2011
    Posts: 358
    Nicely worded philly! Thanks for taking the time to put this down.
    I have struggled explaining this like you have here. A lot of gifted parents feel this way too.

    I am going to steal/share some of your thoughts.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by philly103
    I'm not talking solely about advanced kids. I talking about education in general.
    Absolutely. When considering education in general, 11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins.

    Originally Posted by philly103
    That doesn't change the goal of the teachers regarding educating their students.
    The goal of generating grades which signal "equal outcomes"?
    -VS-
    The goal of achieving one term's growth for each student and/or grades which honestly reflect the growth (or lack of growth) for each pupil throughout the term?

    Originally Posted by philly103
    Teachers should make sure that all students learn the same curriculum - your "equal outcomes".
    I believe you are describing "grade level proficiency."
    Grade level proficiency is NOT the same as assigning grades which indicate "equal outcomes."

    Regarding achieving grade level proficiency, some may say that a teacher's role is to provide ample opportunity for all students to learn the prescribed grade-level curriculum. Teachers cannot ensure student learning. Learning is the student's role.

    Originally Posted by philly103
    A school should have...
    In a perfect world, yes. I believe you used the word "should" 11 times in your post. I do agree that these are useful policies/practices to advocate for.

    Meanwhile, the thread has been discussing what IS, not what "should be." Various parties have been attempting to share their observations on trends in grade inflation/deflation, over time. I personally believe that BOTH grade inflation and grade deflation are occurring, and I believe both are occurring due to incentivization for teachers/schools/institutions/programs to assign grades which indicate "equal outcomes."

    Originally Posted by philly103
    It's stupid to expect a 5th grade math class to teach 7th grade math just because a minority percentage of the students can handle it.
    I do not believe that has been suggested. If you believe otherwise, would you please kindly show me where this has been suggested?

    To use your form of expression, what's stupid is to assign grades to your exemplar 5th grade math class which indicate "equal outcomes" among all pupils when some of the children in your exemplar class are at the 7th grade math level.

    This, I believe is the essential topic of the thread: how much can we trust grades (and college degrees conferred) to be indicative of what the pupil knows,
    - when grades may be inflated (exaggerating student demonstrated performance)
    - when grades may be deflated (under-reporting student demonstrated performance)
    - when teachers/institutions/programs are incentivized to report grades which indicate "equal outcomes"

    Originally Posted by philly103
    Teachers want "equal outcomes" because it means that all of the students have learned the material.
    Assigning grades which indicate "equal outcomes" signals that all pupils have learned the material equally. That each is performing at a level which is indistinguishable from one another.

    Originally Posted by philly103
    Your concern about equal outcomes seems predicated on the idea that teachers should not want all of their 5th graders to grasp the 5th grade curriculum solely because there are some kids who are capable of grasping more.
    This false. Concerns about teachers being incentivized to assign grades which indicate "equal outcomes" include:
    - grades not providing pupils with honest and meaningful feedback on growth throughout the term
    - falsifying records to signal that all pupils are performing at the same skill level
    - some students may receive inflated grades (exaggerating demonstrated knowledge)
    - some students may receive deflated grades (downplaying demonstrated knowledge)
    - there is a ceiling beyond which growth is not measured
    - growth beyond the ceiling is capped, thwarted, discouraged
    - there are a growing number of grading practices in use to ensure the reporting of "equal outcomes"
    - truth, honesty, integrity fall by the wayside when essentially measuring with a rubber ruler to report "equal outcomes"
    - questionable value of college degrees conferred

    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 647
    K
    Kai Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by philly103
    I'm not talking solely about advanced kids. I talking about education in general.
    Absolutely. When considering education in general, 11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins.

    This statistic is misleading. It means that 11-40% of students scored as an average student in the next grade up would score on the same test. This does not mean that they have mastered the material typically taught in their own grade or the next grade up.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by Kai
    Originally Posted by indigo
    When considering education in general, 11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins.

    This statistic is misleading. It means that 11-40% of students scored as an average student in the next grade up would score on the same test. This does not mean that they have mastered the material typically taught in their own grade or the next grade up.
    That may be. Do you have a source for that information? Thanks, Kai.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by Kai
    Originally Posted by indigo
    When considering education in general, 11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins.

    This statistic is misleading. It means that 11-40% of students scored as an average student in the next grade up would score on the same test. This does not mean that they have mastered the material typically taught in their own grade or the next grade up.
    That may be. Do you have a source for that information? Thanks, Kai.

    The quoted source in this post, Accelerate Illinois, provides this citation: 4. Matthew C. Makel, Michael S.Matthews, Scott J. Peters, Karen Rambo-Hernandez, and Jonathan A. Plucker, “How Can So Many Students Be Invisible? Large Percentages of American Students Perform Above Grade Level”, Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy, 2016.

    I looked for a link, this is what I found:
    1) http://edpolicy.education.jhu.edu/h...ican-students-perform-above-grade-level/
    2) http://edpolicy.education.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/StudentsinvisiblemastheadFINAL.pdf

    Reading linked research report...
    1- "performing above grade level"
    2- "one in every five students has surpassed that criterion before the school year even starts"
    3- not germane to this side conversation... but worth considering regarding grade inflation in general:
    "textbook and curriculum analyses suggest that intellectual rigor declined significantly over the last hundred years;8"

    4- "teachers, using pre-testing strategies, could eliminate 40-50% of the existing curriculum for advanced elementary school students without causing achievement declines on out-of-level standardized tests.9 The authors noted, “Targeted students had mastered some material in all content areas prior to instruction; at a minimum, they demonstrated mastery of one-fourth of the curriculum for the year before it was taught” (p. 81). A few students in the same study had mastered three-quarters of the upcoming year’s curriculum."
    5- "cut scores on ELA and mathematics at four levels: below basic, basic, proficient, and advanced... proficient to indicate performance that was on grade level"
    6- "students in a given grade level who scored at or above the proficiency threshold established for one year above their current grade in English Language Arts (ELA) or mathematics. Stated another way, all three tables present the percentage of students who are one or more years advanced in each content area."
    7- "estimate how many students were at least one year above grade level, by determining how many students at the beginning of Grade 5 were already achieving at end-of-year Grade 5 proficiency levels on MAP reading. We were also able to determine how many of these above-grade-level students achieved MAP test scores equivalent to year-end scores for sixth, seventh, and eighth graders."
    8- "At the beginning of their Grade 5 year, approximately 35% of students had scores commensurate with end-of-year Grade 5 proficiency reading levels... Further, approximately 10% of all Grade 5 students in our data demonstrated Grade 8 level end-of-year proficiency. These students were four school years ahead of grade level in reading..."
    9- "Nearly 14% of all Grade 5 students at the beginning of the school year were already earning MAP scores consistent with end-of-Grade-5 proficiency... About 2.4% of all Grade 5 students were achieving at levels equal to, or above, the end-of-Grade-8 (or high school level, four school years ahead of grade level) in mathematics."
    10- "... a MAP test score equivalent to ninth-grade performance is in fact based on ninth-grade content knowledge and skills."
    numbers added to count excerpts

    Although I was recalling information from 2+ years ago, and could've done so inaccurately, I believe the excerpts above indicate that "11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins" represents the findings fairly well.

    While various assessments were utilized in this research, the methods described include early administration of the grade-level end-of-year tests and therefore do not appear to be accurately summarized by the statement: "It means that 11-40% of students scored as an average student in the next grade up would score on the same test. This does not mean that they have mastered the material typically taught in their own grade or the next grade up."

    Some students have significant inbound knowledge, however, with teachers/institutions incentivized to provide grades indicating "equal outcomes" these students may tend to receive grades indicating the same demonstrated knowledge as classmates. A variety of known grading techniques are in play, to deflate the reported grades of these students, and also inflate the reported grades of other students. This can occur at every educational level, including college.

    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 647
    K
    Kai Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by Kai
    Originally Posted by indigo
    When considering education in general, 11-40% of pupils know the material before the class begins.

    This statistic is misleading. It means that 11-40% of students scored as an average student in the next grade up would score on the same test. This does not mean that they have mastered the material typically taught in their own grade or the next grade up.
    That may be. Do you have a source for that information? Thanks, Kai.

    The quoted source in this post, Accelerate Illinois, provides this citation: 4. Matthew C. Makel, Michael S.Matthews, Scott J. Peters, Karen Rambo-Hernandez, and Jonathan A. Plucker, “How Can So Many Students Be Invisible? Large Percentages of American Students Perform Above Grade Level”, Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy, 2016.

    I looked at this article, and I stand by my statement. They are comparing student proficiency and *not* mastery of grade level content.

    Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into it further right now, but I will try to remember to revisit this thread when I do (which should be in the next few days).

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by mecreature
    Nicely worded philly! Thanks for taking the time to put this down.
    I have struggled explaining this like you have here. A lot of gifted parents feel this way too.

    I am going to steal/share some of your thoughts.
    I hope these are the ideas from philly103's post that you wish to further disseminate, mecreature:
    Originally Posted by philly103
    1) creating a broader range of classes for students to reflect the broad range of abilities
    2) the importance of acceleration
    3) A school should have better class groupings so that advanced kids can take classes with similar level peers.
    4) The problem is... insufficient range of choices for different skill level students.
    5) 5th grade... Those students should be allowed to attend the 7th grade math
    6) The students capable of more should move on to classrooms delivering more
    7) When the student has mastered the curriculum the student should move to a different classroom.
    8) When the student has finished the curriculum, the student should change to a new curriculum.
    9) I expect the school to find a way to accommodate my kid... You find a way to accommodate the outlier.
    numbers added, to count the excerpts
    Unfortunately, despite years of successful advocacy, some strong supporters of "equal outcomes" continue to object to acceleration and student grouping by ability, readiness, achievement... or any means of providing continued growth for pupils at the top, until pupils at the bottom catch up and attain grades reflective of having achieved "equal outcomes." Note: "equal outcomes" is NOT synonymous with "grade level proficiency."

    That said, much of the post was far outside the topic of college grade inflation, or even the broader topic of grading practices. I'll tie this back to the thread by saying that grades recorded for earlier educational levels do impact college readiness, college grades, college grade inflation/deflation, and the value of degrees conferred.

    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    Originally Posted by indigo
    I hope these are the ideas from philly103's post that you wish to further disseminate, mecreature:
    Originally Posted by philly103
    1) creating a broader range of classes for students to reflect the broad range of abilities
    2) the importance of acceleration
    3) A school should have better class groupings so that advanced kids can take classes with similar level peers.
    4) The problem is... insufficient range of choices for different skill level students.
    5) 5th grade... Those students should be allowed to attend the 7th grade math
    6) The students capable of more should move on to classrooms delivering more
    7) When the student has mastered the curriculum the student should move to a different classroom.
    8) When the student has finished the curriculum, the student should change to a new curriculum.
    9) I expect the school to find a way to accommodate my kid... You find a way to accommodate the outlier.
    numbers added, to count the excerpts

    While I found your list of extracts to be interesting, especially in how it illustrates how different people can read the same post and take different things from it, I would also encourage people watching this thread to read and reflect on philly103's whole insightful post, rather than to rely on a "Cliffs Notes" version. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us, philly103, without worrying about whether it precisely fit within the bounds of the thread title.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by Kai
    They are comparing student proficiency and *not* mastery of grade level content.

    Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into it further right now, but I will try to remember to revisit this thread when I do (which should be in the next few days).
    I look forward to reading your thoughts and sources, whenever you may post them. In the meanwhile I believe we can both agree that the research indicates a percentage of American Students Perform Above Grade Level... thereby allowing the conversation of grade inflation/deflation to continue.

    When some students perform above grade level, are "equal outcomes" possible?

    What role does (or might) grade inflation/deflation play in recording grades which indicate "equal outcomes" among pupils with different performance levels... whether in earlier education experiences or at the college/university level?

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    read and reflect on philly103's whole insightful post, rather than to rely on a "Cliffs Notes" version.
    LOL, this was not intended to be a "Cliffs Notes" version of philly103's post, but rather was clearly labeled as ideas which I hope mecreature had in mind when planning to share "some of" philly103's thoughts.

    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    Thank you for taking the time to share it with us, philly103, without worrying about whether it precisely fit within the bounds of the thread title.
    Rather than not fitting precisely within the thread title, philly103's post veered off-topic, leaving behind college grade inflation or even the broader topic of grading practices. Much of the post content was far outside the topic including philly03 arguing against strawman statements, such as practices which had not been suggested ("It's stupid to expect a 5th grade math class to teach 7th grade math just because a minority percentage of the students can handle it.") and viewpoints mis-attributed ("Your concern about equal outcomes seems predicated on the idea that teachers should not want all of their 5th graders to grasp the 5th grade curriculum solely because there are some kids who are capable of grasping more.")

    Thank you for allowing me to clarify. smile

    To the degree that others continue philly103's side conversation without tying their posts back to the thread... the thread has been hijacked. Possibly a new thread could be created for that side conversation... ?

    Meanwhile, I'll tie this post back to the thread by saying that grading practices and grades recorded for earlier educational levels do impact college readiness, college grade inflation/deflation*, and ultimately even the value of degrees conferred.

    *Grade deflation mentioned in article which mckinley introduced and sought feedback on: article by Patrick Julius (March 2018).

    Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by blackcat - 04/17/24 08:15 AM
    Jo Boaler and Gifted Students
    by thx1138 - 04/12/24 02:37 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 04/08/24 12:40 PM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5