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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8 |
The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising, I recognize this as a societal problem, but I want entitlement today and have my children, grand-children, and great-grandchildren pay for it in the future. This is a fallacious argument. There exists a spectrum of expenditure options which can, on a publicly revenue-neutral basis, provide some financial offset for the costs of post-secondary education for those who need it most. Sadly, political pressure to avoid even evaluating such options fosters continued, unnecessary poverty for a segment of the population that--under well-designed programs-- would cost the public NOTHING on net to remediate. Please elaborate, providing links and resources.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8
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You're making the faulty assumption that the only way to tackle the problem is to subsidize it. That's very unimaginative. My apologies, subsidy is what I understood as your view upthread, and in prior discussion threads. Would you please clarify your position? 2) The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising, I accept my responsibilities as a member of society and believe problems should be solved, and I am willing to engage in activities relevant to making that happen.
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I have endorsed the second. You can invest a handful of thousands in someone for a few years (and not just your best and brightest), and then mine them for income taxes for a couple of generations. Or, you can ignore their needs when they're young, then imprison them at far greater expense for a couple of generations. This country has chosen the second option.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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"Relevant activities" can mean many things. I chose that language specifically to avoid boxing myself in to any single solution, because complex social problems require a complex package of solutions.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 423
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You don't have to participate in society, either. You could go live on an island somewhere and pay no taxes. If you choose to live somewhere else, you're accepting the responsibilities that go along with the benefits of said society. Agreed, however, the rules of our society in the U.S. do not include paying for an adult's education. Find me where that is a right in our Constitution or it's amendments and we have a different discussion. Back to the medical analogy, just by participating and financing other people's treatments, you're pushing down the cost of treatment while advancing knowledge of how to do so. All this will benefit you further down the line, because regardless of whether you or your loved ones ever get a malignant tumor, the odds that none of you ever get an expensive and difficult condition are, assuming you live a normal life span, nearly zero. Regardless, as an adult I have no right to make you pay for my treatment. As an adult, you have no right to the services or property of others. I can endorse the leadership and discipline qualities, which is why I appear to grasp social responsibility at a level far beyond you. As for paying for college, you shouldn't believe everything you read on a recruiting poster. Currently two of my eldest son's best friends had both had their college all but paid for by the U.S. military, one of the including a graduate degree, so I can be assured it's not just a fake worm on a recruiting poster. As for societal responsibility, you make mass assumptions which don't become you, I fulfill my societal responsibility quite generously of my own free will, I don't need the government to use force for me to do so....and that's where my objection is, not to fulfill societal and moral obligations but to be forced by threat in order to do so. And finally, don't pretend you're performing any kind of charity by funding the military. You're benefiting far beyond your contributions, and most of the individuals involved are grossly underpaid. There's a reason why "thank you for your service" has become a thing.
You're welcome, btw. At no point did I indicate that my taxes toward toward the military are charity. I receive a valuable service in exchange for them. My point which you failed to understand is, this is a viable option for financing college. You're welcome as well btw. Combat Engineer here. You stop being the responsibility of society and start being responsible FOR society. That's what being an adult in a society means. You're basically arguing that you should be able to accept the gifts of living in a society, with none of the responsibilities. Once again, you assume FAR too much. The presumption, as I far too often see, is that societal duties and responsibilities can ONLY be fulfilled though the government. Real adults don't need the government to hold their hand and force them to do so, they do so of their own free will. Now I'd suggest that you cease with the personal character attacks and making mass assumptions about belief systems and values as it becomes neither of us.
Last edited by Old Dad; 04/19/18 12:16 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8 |
"Relevant activities" can mean many things For clarification, in the context of this discussion, what does it mean to you?
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Agreed, however, the rules of our society in the U.S. do not include paying for an adult's education. Find me where that is a right in our Constitution or it's amendments and we have a different discussion. This argument is a red herring and a straw man. At no point did anyone make the argument that any one individual should have a guaranteed right to a publicly-financed secondary education. Regardless, as an adult I have no right to make you pay for my treatment. As an adult, you have no right to the services or property of others. I'll expect you to be a man of your principles, then, and cancel your insurance. Currently two of my eldest son's best friends had both had their college all but paid for by the U.S. military, one of the including a graduate degree, so I can be assured it's not just a fake worm on a recruiting poster. The "how" here matters. For enlisted folks after their terms, the GI Bill is financed largely by other enlisted folks paying in their $1200 in the first year of their enlistment (when that makes up a huge proportion of their salaries), and also by the fact that they're accepting far below market value for their labors during the course of their enlistments. For officers, the costs of their education is offset by the contractual obligation to serve for a specified period of time, also at a rate far below market value. Either way, the beneficiaries are largely paying their own way. Anyway, this is a red herring argument, because we were talking about the growing inaccessibility of a secondary education on a societal scale. Unless the military plans a massive expansion, they cannot play a role in alleviating that. As for societal responsibility, you make mass assumptions which don't become you, I fulfill my societal responsibility quite generously of my own free will, I don't need the government to use force for me to do so....and that's where my objection is, not to fulfill societal and moral obligations but to be forced by threat in order to do so. By that I assume you mean you also pay your taxes, and interpret that as a social responsibility, and not something you're under threat to do. Once again, you assume FAR too much. The presumption, as often from those who are liberal, is that societal duties and responsibilities can ONLY be fulfilled though the government. Real adults don't need the government to hold their hand and force them to do so, they do so of their own free will.
Now I'd suggest that you cease with the personal character attacks and making mass assumptions about belief systems and values as it becomes neither of us. Wait, so you assumed that I'm a liberal (I'm not), that I believe social duties are solely the responsibility of the government (I don't even know any liberals who believe this), and somehow I'm the one making inaccurate assumptions? I'm not sure what system of beliefs I've attacked, except the notion that people should enjoy the benefits of society without accepting the responsibilities that go along with them. I don't recognize that as a system of beliefs, but rather as a pathology.
Last edited by Dude; 04/19/18 01:12 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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"Relevant activities" can mean many things For clarification, in the context of this discussion, what does it mean to you? Obviously anything that fosters discussion and promotes awareness would be a relevant activity - anything from this thread to writing your Congressman, organizing protests, participating in brainstorming sessions, etc. One thing that stands out to me in this is that, as we've discussed elsewhere in this forum, far too many institutions are carrying bloated debt rolls because of expenditures on things that have nothing to do with the mission of education, with the most extreme example being the lazy river. It seems like, rather than continuing to escalate tuition and expenses, that could be resolved in bankruptcy court. Sure, investors might take a haircut, but that's investing, win some/lose some, and the smart investor should have known better than to buy a bond to finance that. Another solution that seems obvious is NCAA sports, where there's an arms race in spending, yet outside of the top ten institutions, colleges are bleeding red in this area. Cut those programs (or perhaps spin them off into a private entity), and you've got a lot of money back in the pot that actually educates people. Next, there's clearly a severe bloat in most administrative positions, and there's an opportunity for streamlining. Granted, if I were running this, I'd put some of those savings back into teachers, because the excessive use of adjunct professors has come at a significant cost to quality. Once I was done with those measures, I'd balance the books and see where I'm at, and formulate next steps.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8 |
"Relevant activities" can mean many things For clarification, in the context of this discussion, what does it mean to you? Obviously anything that fosters discussion and promotes awareness would be a relevant activity - anything from this thread to writing your Congressman, organizing protests, participating in brainstorming sessions, etc. One thing that stands out to me in this is that, as we've discussed elsewhere in this forum, far too many institutions are carrying bloated debt rolls because of expenditures on things that have nothing to do with the mission of education, with the most extreme example being the lazy river. It seems like, rather than continuing to escalate tuition and expenses, that could be resolved in bankruptcy court. Sure, investors might take a haircut, but that's investing, win some/lose some, and the smart investor should have known better than to buy a bond to finance that. Another solution that seems obvious is NCAA sports, where there's an arms race in spending, yet outside of the top ten institutions, colleges are bleeding red in this area. Cut those programs (or perhaps spin them off into a private entity), and you've got a lot of money back in the pot that actually educates people. Next, there's clearly a severe bloat in most administrative positions, and there's an opportunity for streamlining. Granted, if I were running this, I'd put some of those savings back into teachers, because the excessive use of adjunct professors has come at a significant cost to quality. Once I was done with those measures, I'd balance the books and see where I'm at, and formulate next steps. Thank you for sharing these thoughts. Possibly I see some likemindedness, between you and Bostonian? Between you and Old Dad? Somewhat of a no-frills or back-to-basics approach? Valuing cost-benefits justification?
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,076 Likes: 6
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,076 Likes: 6 |
And let's not forget the unintended consequences of increasing availability to federal student loans, and their impact on rising college tuition: https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff_reports/sr733.pdfBetter mousetrap --> smarter mouse
...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,261 Likes: 8 |
At no point did anyone make the argument that any one individual should have a guaranteed right to a publicly-financed secondary education. That's what I understood to be aquinas' expressed view, here, as a Canadian inquiring whether there is universal aid for college tuition in the US. Dude, would you please kindly refrain from calling the member whose moniker is "Old Dad", Old Man? I find a half-dozen of such references. I understand this may be a repeated typo... in which case, would you mind editing your posts?
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