Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment K MAP Maths 98th percentile & WPPSI-IV FSIQ 110s?

DD6 and DD4 took the WPPSI-IV test last Fall (at 5 and 3) because we were looking at private schools for this Fall. DD4 came out as moderately gifted, which matched well with teacher's observations and mine.

DD6's results really surprised me with an FSIQ in the 110s and percentile in the 70ies. Her lowest score, by 25+ percentile points, was in general knowledge. I was surprised overall because she had hit her motor and verbal milestones so early, including compared to little sis, and had exceptional fine motor skills.

Two weeks after receiving those test results, we received the results from her Fall kindergarten MAP math assessment, where she scored at the 96th percentile. That surprised me too, first because of her WPPSI-IV results, but also because DD6 did not care for Montessori math materials throughout PK4 and some of K, choosing instead to sew buttons and pillows, lots and lots of little pillows. By the end of kindergarten, she's now slightly above-grade in reading, but she gained 20 RIT points in the maths MAP, and is now in the 98th percentile at the Spring assessment.

I don't quite expect DD6 to be gifted, even though I could "hang onto" her MAP scores if I "wanted to believe" she is. I'm posting my questions here because my gifted youngest led me to read this forum, and frankly you guys are wicked smart and steeped deep in the subtleties of testing.

1- Is it common to see a math MAP score of 96-98th percentile on the MAP math assessment, in a child with an FSIQ in the 110s?
2- Is it even plausible that a kindergartner would reach the 98th percentile, when she says herself that some of her classmates do more advanced maths than her (her school's average for that grade is near national average) and without "hothousing" (that I'm consciously aware of)?
3- Could the time (a few hours a week up until Christmas, but none in the last 5 months of the school year) I've let DD6 play on some educational apps on the iPad have brought up her MAP score, even though she hadn't seemed interested in maths otherwise?
4- Is the RIT to percentile rank table different every year? The one I found for 2015-16 doesn't match what's stated on DD6's MAP results report page, or rather it matches the Spring 2017 but not the Fall 2016 correspondence between RIT and rank. [NEVERMIND - I was using a "ruler" found via google, and it isn't accurate]
5- Does a poor performance in one area of the WPPSI-IV test bias the tester, or influence the tested, on the rest of the test? Does a high-testing sibling tested the same morning bias the tester when assessing the other sibling?
6- Is there some sort of inverse relationship between fine motor skills development and IQ?
7- Is it unrealistic wishful thinking to feel that the outcome in general knowledge didn't reflect her abilities? Would you say that other than for the gifted subjects, the information segment is a bit of a crapshoot as far as reflecting how much information is retained from what they're exposed to?

Addressing #1, I don't think you could call it "common", but I have seen it with my son. His MAP was 99th percentile, but his FSIQ was 108? 106? Something like that. GAI was 117. Turned out he had ADHD and after his ADHD was treated and he was retested with FSIQ of 132 and GAI of 141.

I would suggest that there is a valid reason for the discrepancy - some deficit somewhere that affected her test scores. I believe it's worth looking for it. As she gets older she's likely to become frustrated with the extra hidden struggle. Students like this easily fall through the cracks without a parent advocate.

I would also consider that being 5 on WPPSI at the time of the test, he hit the ceiling of the test. I would, if needed, retest now that he is 6 on the WISC-V.

I doubt this is common, but I'm only a parent and not terribly familiar with MAP scores as they aren't used in my area. I would note, however, that an FSIQ (as mentioned above) is a sum/average of subtest scores which look across many different abilities, therefore it's not an apples-to-apples comparison to look at a correlation of FSIQ vs a math achievement test.

Do you have a report from your DDs' WISC tests that shows subtest scores? If you do, and aren't concerned about listing it here, it might help you get more detailed feedback re the ability testing vs MAP scores.


I can't comment on your specific situation, as I don't have any idea what the difference is between the types of math other students in class are doing and what's tested on MAP. However... these are questions that her teacher likely has some insight on. I might also wonder if she was placed below where she's capable of being in terms of math ability classes within her classroom - that might have happened if the students were assessed at the beginning of the year, and your dd hadn't been exposed to some of the concepts other students had at that point in time. It's also possible that she's doing very well on the types of math problems that are tested in early elementary on achievement tests, where the math she'll encounter later on in school is more concept-based. It's possible to have higher ability in one vs the other, and that might be reflected in her WISC scores vs MAP scores. I hope that makes sense - I don't think I explained it very well lol!



I suspect it could.. if she was playing with math apps. I wouldn't necessarily take any meaning from that re her *ability* with respect to math calculations and concepts. If this is what happened, I suspect what it shows is that she is quite capable of learning math calculations... and the corresponding WISC subtests may be higher than the average FSIQ.


I think it would be the rare exception to find a professional tester who wasn't credible and trustworthy re scoring the WISC. Keep in mind that this is the tester's profession, and their credibility is important to their success. On the other hand, it's quite possible that variations in score could be present due to a child being tired or distracted or not cooperating, or the presence of true scatter in abilities. I'd think back through your conversations with the tester, and also look back through the reports you have from the tester to see if anything re attention or subtest score discrepancies etc was noted.


No (I'm answering that as a math geek, not a professional psych... so take my "No" for what it's worth... essentially nothing lol!). As Portia mentioned, there are some subtests that rely on fine motor skills... however... what you usually see is a child who struggles with fine motor skills will have a lower than expected score, rather than seeing a child who has fine motor skills getting an exceptionally high subtest score - the child is still going to have some intellectual ability ceiling they will bump up against eventually with respect to that skill, no matter how amazing their fine motor skills.

My advice (again, not worth anything!) is to not over-focus on the results of the WISC (both of your dds were tested at a very young age), but instead focus on what is happening in the classroom with their academics - if things are going well, great. If there seems to be a struggle or if performance isn't what you're expecting, talk to the teacher, talk to your dd, and also look back at the WISC testing to see if you find any clues there.

And... one last note... Portia mentioned there may be a hidden struggle you're not seeing - this happened to us when our 2e kids were in early elementary. We didn't have WISC scores (or any testing) but my kids were under-performing in areas we didn't expect them to have problems because they seemed so obviously extremely capable in other areas. I spent a lot of time focusing on their strengths and thinking that the other would catch up or that they just weren't trying or that they were bored. In hindsight, I wish I'd paid closer attention to the things they *weren't* doing as well in because there were some very important clues there that made a lot of sense once we had actual IQ results.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ditto pb and other PPs.

I would consider that you already have achievement data that suggests some kind of unusual learning profile (one that may or may not technically tip into learning disability range, but likely has some effect on her learning experience). You've noted that she is performing exceedingly well in mathematics, barely above average in reading, and has a history of early strength in verbal and fine motor skills. I will include the caveat that, with largely self-directed learning, she may have advanced more in some subjects because of personal interest, not because there was actually a difference in rate of learning between them and her less-advanced subjects.

But let's assume (a big if) that these achievement scores accurately represent her skill acquisition in the different areas under equivalent conditions of access to instruction. With that assumption, the math strength and reading relative weakness might suggest some unidentified impediment to learning to read (e.g., dyslexia). We don't currently have enough information to answer this question one way or the other, but I think we do have enough to suspect that it's a question that it might behoove you to ask.

The specific weakness in information found on the WPPSI doesn't necessarily concern me as much per se, as it's highly dependent on cultural context and access to typical English-speaking first world experiences, which may not be a reasonable assumption even for a child in an educated, high-SES family, if they have a family culture which is significantly different from the majority. I will note that, if her oral language is strong, but her reading is only age-appropriate, I would not be that surprised to see a relative weakness in Information, where this subtest is closer to age-appropriate, rather than above average, because the difference between the testable information available to a NT kindergartner and a high-cognitive one often hinges on the latter's much more advanced access to text.

I'll echo others in saying that it would be much easier to provide feedback on the test profile with subtest and index scores, but please don't feel pressure to post them, if you don't feel comfortable with doing so. I also don't mind responding to a pm.