Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional 504/empathy -longish

DD (just turned 11!)was in the car on the way to school today when she realized that she did not have her school binder. Usually we have it all packed up the night before, but DH is out of town so we are a bit out of wack. Anyway, panic ensued when she realized that she would be late, AND she couldn't find the binder at home. She began sobbing these huge gulping sobs and just kept crying "I'll be late!!!!!! I'll be late!!" I tried to be calm, but I was really feeling awful for her and hatred towards the school for giving out lunch detentions if a child is late to school. Anyway, we got to school with 5 minutes to spare. The lady at the front office told me she would send a note to the 1st period teacher to make sure DD was ok after I explained about the meltdown and DD's 504.

My question is - DD11 does have a 504 for ADHD. Age-wise she is a young 5th grader. Grade-wise she is in 6th. She has done FABULOUS this year with getting her homework, lunch, etc back and forth to school. I can count one time where she forgot her agenda and about 4 times she forgot to bring home her lunchbox. This week she has received a zero for missing homework which she claims to have turned in (teacher cannot find it/DD refuses to talk to him again after he told her he did not have it). Today she almost forgot her binder. How strongly do I advocate (help?)for her at the school? When do I wave the 504 flag? In addition, I have been given conflicting advice on mentioning DD's grade acceleration. Some here say their schools do some hand-holding with kids who have been accelerated. Some parents say to not bring it up with the teachers because the kids should be able to deal with it. Thoughts?

Next part: DD is now seeing a psych. to help her with social skills. As posted elsewhere, DD really wants friends but finds it hard. Psych. brought up DD's lack of empathy and how that makes it pretty difficult to connect to others. Psych. brought up that DD "studies" people vs. engaging with them (DD journals personality and behavioral traits of the popular) I stated that DH and I had wondered about Asperger's (even typing this makes me hyperventilate). Psych. said something like DD has Asperger tendencies in terms of social skills and lack of empathy. She also said that kids on the spectrum do have emotions although many people don't understand that.

I ran out of time to talk more to psych. so went online to look at Asperger's symptoms. While she struggles with social stuff and empathy (which she knows she is not - she happily agrees that she should never be a teacher or a doctor because she has little patience with people)and obsession with Minecraft, electronics, researching topics online, DD doesn't seem to fit the bill for a lot of the other symptoms. One site mentioned problems with pretend play. DD used to love to play pretend with older DD (they still do sometimes). Anyway, I wonder where the line is drawn between the spectrum and someone who struggles socially and isn't very emotional.

DS13 has Asperger's, just diagnosed last year. I am no expert (but am trying). A couple of things I notice in your post:

--lack of empathy is not a diagnostic criterion for ASD and I would be a little wary about a psych who uses that descriptor. That's a really controversial piece in the autism conversation. Empathy and perspective-taking are two entirely different animals and thinking a kid lacks empathy leads you down a different road than thinking a kid struggles with perspective-taking will.

--just because a person doesn't see herself in a helping profession, doesn't mean they don't have empathy. My DS has said he wouldn't want to be a doctor or pilot or anything where "other people's lives depend on you" because of the pressure.
A LOT of non-autistic people would not want a career that was focused on interacting with other people.

--the description of studying social behavior does sound like some anecdotals I've read about females on the autism spectrum. It seems reasonable, too, that a child with burgeoning awareness of being socially awkward and an analytical personality type might utilize this approach. JUST having social difficulties is not diagnostic of ASD.

--as for "waving the 504 flag:" it's probably a good idea to document these things, in case you need the documentation later to advocate. Especially since it sounds like these are occasional issues and not pervasive, it might help you establish some sort of pattern.

--as an observation: the child you describe doesn't exactly sound "unemotional." More like an unusual profile, with some trouble managing emotions at times. She also sounds like a fairly typical, driven, anxious, gifted young adolescent. It's hard to know what's causing what, isn't it?

It sounds like she's had a really good start and is managing MS well! Don't freak out about the ASD stuff. Whatever it is, it is what it is. If you already have a pretty good handle on where her challenges lie, it probably doesn't matter too much what the label is at this point, since she's functioning well.

My two cents, possibly worth slightly less.

You've received excellent advice from eco, in the previous post.

I have only a brief moment but wanted to respond to one tiny part of your post There can be a large discrepancy between a person feeling/experiencing an emotion such as empathy and a person demonstrating/expressing empathy. It is my understanding that those on the spectrum may be observed as not demonstrating or expressing an emotion such as empathy, however they may feel emotion very intensely, including an emotion of empathy.

When a child does not seem to be demonstrating empathy and the situation seems to be one which would elicit empathy, it may prove insightful to ask the child what their thoughts and feelings are about the circumstance at hand.

Here's a quick summary of ASD diagnostic criteria, as presented by the CDC.

You may wish to keep dated documentation at home in an advocacy notebook, and then you will best be prepared to mention any possible incidents of non-compliance and resulting impacts, in a low-key, factual, and collaborative manner.

Age could be mentioned as a simple fact, but you may wish to avoid "playing the age card" (ie: presenting her age to seek special favor or entitlement) especially when her issues may be 504 issues and not age issues per se.

This is not from my professional perspective (that's actually been covered pretty well above!), but from my personal one: I was in a similar grade placement, at a similar age, and while not as motivated a student as your DD , what does strike a chord is the description of sociological studies on adolescent behavior, which is exactly how I managed peer social relations at that point in my life. I don't think I've ever been described as lacking empathy by my clients, co-workers, or friends (except for my spouse, who thinks I should coddle Someone's aches and ills more--but that's something else entirely!), but I definitely dealt with the developmental gap between pre-adolescent and adolescent by studying and categorizing my schoolmates. Actually, in high school, it transformed into social currency for me, as I was perceived as a reliable source of objective, rational, drama-free advice on social interactions, by a number of peers.

And of my sibs, the one with the least patience for people (especially ignorance and incompetence) is in medicine, and quite effective as a clinician.

So not only are these behaviors not necessarily indicative of the autistic spectrum, they are not even intrinsically absolute predictors of suitability/unsuitability for helping professions.

You said that even typing about Aspergers is making you hyperventilate, which I assume means you think it is a bad thing. If she is diagnosed with Aspergers, it's not a new thing, it's something that she has always had which just stayed under the radar. It opens up new oprotunitys, and gives you an explanation for some old behaviors and issues. It would help you deal with some of her issues better, and will give you a better idea of what to watch out for in the future. Aspergers is not the end of the world, it's a new beggining.

Both of my children have been diagnosed with ASD (would have been Asperger's before that was removed from the DSM). Let me echo what AnnieQuill said - it's not a bad thing, and it's not a new thing. It's an aspect of her personality, but she is the same kid you know and love.

That said, have you looked generally at information about Asperger's Syndrome, or have you looked specifically for information about how AS presents in girls? There is a fair amount of evidence at this point that its presentation in girls is not that same, and its incidence in girls may be higher than previously believed because of the differences in presentation.

Does your DD have any sensory issues? DD12's school counselor referred to the "unholy triad" of ADHD, anxiety, and sensory processing disorder as being characteristic of undiagnosed autism. If she has all three, I'd consider asking an autism specialist to rule it in or out for you. It's better to know, even if you dread the answer.

ElizabethN makes a good point (and I'm irreverently laughing at the unholy triad thing). You can find a lot of online info about female ASD (my son's dx isn't officially Asperger's, bc that's not used any more, but his NP said "it fits a pattern that would previously have been called Asperger's)." I think the biggest difference is that kids with Asperger's did not have language delays in the previous DSM--not 100% sure about that.

You won't find anything in the DSM nor will most clinicians have any idea whatsoever about how this presents differently in females. I work with a therapist who specializes in play therapy for ASD kids who has never heard any of that info.

I don't know exactly what to think about sensory issues, because I don't feel confident there is a serious distinction between pure sensory and anxiety issues.

In our case, it would be an unholy triad between ADHD, anxiety, and social communication issues. The social stuff, though, isn't framed like that. What I've heard is stuff like: rude, disrespectful, insensitive, etc.

This isn't DSM either, but does your DD have trouble with being very literal? DS has a lot of trouble with interferences. This becomes more and more evident as other children make developmental leaps, and he does not.

Here is an example of how literal thinking can cause big trouble: DS was sent to the hall for an entire class period when his teacher asked him (after asking once before), if he was "ready now" to do his task. DS responded, "no." You can see how a teacher would consider that very uncooperative--gifted kid knows that question is rhetorical, right? Um, no. If you dissect your DD's social interactions, and notice that through this particular lens, you can explain most of her struggles--that's a clue.

My son was diagnosed as ASP at age three because he had sensory issues like unable the tolerate sticky glue, sunlight too bright outside, horrible meltdowns if teacher woke him up from his nap, inappropriately touching other kids, annoying others, etc.
We were devastated that his diagnosis was Aspergers. Felt like it was our fault and we blamed each other for his genetic problems. Over the next few years, other clinicians said he had ADHD and not asp. We were relieved! But recently he was tested again and the NP said he is ASP. This time however, we weren't in denial, nor upset. He is who he is and a diagnosis doesn't change that. We are trying to understand him more and help him through his struggles. This is the life and struggle of a 2E kid.

I have so many thoughts going on in my head about all this, but a few items I can remark upon - empathy. She's always fallen short on this one. The therapist picked up on it right away. DD this weekend stated that she didn't want to work with anyone because she didn't like people. That hit me hard. I asked if there were any that she liked? "Maybe".

As for the 504 business - I started a file so I can keep track. Thank you for the idea.

Unusual profile? To me, absolutely. I can figure out my DD12. Even at my DD12's most explosive crazy or sad times, I can understand what is going on. DD11 is a mystery to me. She asked me to have a private moment (shut ourselves in the bathroom). She demanded to know "Why do you want to know my personal business?????!!!!" I explained that people who care about each other talk and share. She seems to be baffled by the idea of sharing what goes on in her head. Often when I ask her questions, I get the "I don't know." answer. Anyway, I told her that no matter what she does, where she goes, I will always love her. Interestingly she crawled into my lap during prayer time a few minutes after our "private time".

'she didn't want to work with anyone because she didn't like people.' This is incredibly understandable. For one, group work is a pain in the rear even if your normal, and if you're gifted? You're expected to do the majority of the assignment without help, or at least that's what the rest of your group expects. And if she dosn’t like people it's perfectly okay, it's called being an introvert. And for introverts, people are exausting. It's okay, there is absolutely nothing wrong with her, she just dosn’t like people. And dear god, if you bring her to a party, give her your electronic device so she can find a quiet corner and zone out.

Sorry if this came out as a lecture, it's a really big button for me.