Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Hitting a brick wall with algebra

Our state has the X years requirement for HS diploma and that's one reason we saw value in a whole-grade skip rather than SSA (since DS was over-all ahead, not just in math).

Moving back to the original tone of "hitting a wall", DD10 fell apart this morning. She had been up late last night with a bad cold so she was operating on little sleep and had had hours (!!!) of homework to do over the weekend. When she cries I know it's bad. She sobbed that she could not remember the geometry formulas for volume she had been taught last week, and she had a quiz about them today. Between the masses of Kleenex I saw everywhere and the meltdown before me, I knew her she needed to stay home. I did a little work. She did a little Minecraft. We met over some sheets of volume problems, and soon she was saying things like "Oh! I see. Let me re-do this one." or "Oh! I forgot to do this."

I took the "mental health" day approach - well, it was mental and sick - and it worked well. I asked her later if she liked learning math with me vs. in the classroom, and she said one on one with me (although I just found good websites to help because I can't remember any of this stuff). I asked her how she could remember science/social studies/LA facts so well but not the math, and she bluntly stated "I just read history and stuff once, and I know it." but she didn't have an answer why the math formulas wouldn't stick after just seeing them once. It's probably because she HATES math. Funny how the math went easily after she learned the formulas today. Plus, she and her sister were throwing volume information at each other across the dining room table over burgers.

Hours of week-end homework is excessive. If classes are overall easy and she is relatively quick, then you might want to advise her to do some of her homework at school when the other kids are still working on their tests/quizzes/class work.

Math may not be her thing and that is okay too.

Usually she doesn't have much work because she does do it in class. There was one of those ridiculous busy work projects, and 8 pages of math problems! She has notes in social studies that she is required to turn into "note cards" so it was a labor intensive project. We finally got the system down so next time it won't be so long. There was nothing about learning and everything about churning out little bitty pieces of paper. Ugh. Math was easy once she had the formulas down.

That's one of the hang-ups for a lot of us about math, I suspect. Things like history or science are more about memorizing and understanding (i.e., can seem a lot faster to master), whereas math is something you have to use in different ways (ex. various problems) to really know (slower).

Yes, very true for DD, and one reason she sees herself as bad at math.

So, after moving back out of algebra and into geometry, DD has gone back to not needing any HW help at all and getting As again. But honestly, I'm concerned. The struggle has been very real with the two units this year that were true algebra. I have always said that I could not really perceive DD's actual math ability because schoolwork in elementary was pretty easy, we didn't enrich, and it wasn't her area of interest. This year I think I'm getting more of a handle on it, and I just don't know about a double acceleration leading to calc BC junior year. She recently participated in a math olympiad-type contest (her class was required to) and scored just okay--pretty good, but I don't see great math talent from the score. I feel like we might have gotten on the wrong train. She probably CAN hack it in this progression, but it will likely be toil and tears, and she is a complex kid with other issues to handle. (OTOH, no other areas of academic struggle besides organization.) Many bright kids we know did not opt for this track, and I have wondered what they knew that we didn't.

Well... there is nothing wrong with NOT taking Calculus BC as a junior! I didn't read all of the threads on this but what about:
1) Math tutor or Kumon/Mathnasium?
2) Do tutoring or home problems daily over the summer?
3) Keep reviewing the basics of multiplication, fractions, etc. I think a lot of Algebra is that.
My son last summer took an accelerated 5-week course that was high school Algebra I. He got a B+ and it's made this year of 7th grade Algebra I (common core-style) a breeze.
sometimes you just need to slowly repeat or reintroduce topics until they like it and feel comfortable with it.
He doesn't do Math Olympiad- I think he doesn't like the kids who do it and he doesn't want to.

I'd be careful about making a judgment about talent based on a score in a single competition or on your DD's problems with Common Course course 3. Given the education your DD is getting (and no extra tutoring, right?), even a pretty-good Math Olympiad score is very good, given that the MO tests actual math skills, whereas that CC book is a dog's dinner of mashed up concepts. The course can't be far behind, given that it has to go through all the material in that horrible book.

I bought a copy of the course 3 book, and it's not much different from the other disasters that Pearson has given us in the last 10 or 15 years. It's all mixed up and out of order. Chapter 3 is about graphing equations and interpreting the graphs. Chapter 4 goes backwards to basic information about what it means to graph an equation.

Chapters 1-4 have lots of stuff about squares, cube roots, and quadratic equations. Chapter 6 takes us back to the very most basic ideas about exponents.

No, I am not making this up.

I'll repeat my advice from before: get your daughter into a program like the Mathnasium. They have their own mathematically correct curriculum, progress logically, and don't give homework (well, Mathnasium doesn't). If this isn't an option, I'd recommend an old pre-algebra book or the Brown Algebra 1 book. Teach her yourself with the help of a teacher's edition. As I mentioned, I did this with my son, and his relief at being freed from the pit of confusion was palpable.

Personally, I don't see much point in aiming for a Calc BC course if the student is going to struggle through badly designed Common Core courses to get there. It just doesn't make sense, and the students are honestly probably not learning much in a meaningful way.

But most importantly, don't let Pearson and the Common Core's poorly thought-out middle school math standards convince your daughter that she's "bad at math." Pearson and the middle school standards are the ones that are bad.

Val, I sent you a PM after belatedly getting yours a while back--not sure if you saw it since there is that blinky-enevelope thing.

The thing is, DD would kill me and throw my body to the sharks if I had her do any extra math or summer math. I don't want to categorically say that she doesn't like math, because...the thing is, she actually has this keen interest in finding math patterns and puzzling out math rules that has been with her since she was tiny. She still does this, inventing little theorems that are right, and it's the thing that makes me go....wellllll...but math as school math? Her least favorite class, certainly, and if I asked her to do it during summer I woudl have all out war on my hands. Now, I could pull her out of the class and have her do Khan or or an online class and really, she would probably kill it. She's a great autodidact. seriously. But EXTRA math? hahahahahaha.

As far as grade level basics, we know she is solid. She got a perfect score--no questions incorrect--on the state standardized math exam last year. Which is a very easy exam, AFAIK, but. So it isn't that she's shaky on that stuff. I just have felt like she's honestly struggling with certain portions of this advanced curriculum--and those portions are the algebra.


Well, so this is it too. I fear she will get by with grit and innate cleverness but not grasp things deeply.

DD could end up in science. She's also showing a real flair for technology and computers this year. So, part of me does not want to deemphasize math. But I also don't want to force her through an overly advanced curriculum that's hard for her and not in a subject she enjoys because that's what she is "supposed" to do as a high-potential student. Family values are not such that she must be TOP CLASS in everything.

Update: I emailed her teacher, who feels she is doing fine. (Not awesome or great, but fine.) The teacher said most kids do not get the algebra work they were doing the first time and she considered DD's progress normal. Hmm.