Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Easing Pressure on Students Bares Ethnic Divide

Apologies for another sports related link, but this one seem apt:

"Don't 'Throw Until You Die'"
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/15/opinion/don-t-throw-until-you-die.html

'In the last year, Nomo began complaining of shoulder pain. But his request to ease up was rejected gruffly by his manager, a onetime pitching star out of the warrior tradition whose philosophy has been described by Robert Whiting, the pre-eminent American expert on Japanese baseball, as "Throw until you die." '

More isn't always better. It's just more.

Well, toxic in my terms, then. As I said, our school is no where near as competitive, and my DD is lucky in that she rarely needs to study, and frequently does homework and preparation for science Olympiad during her weakest classes. However, despite this, the volume of busy work she has to complete is extreme- she regularly gets up at 5am or earlier to complete work, and she has friends who get up at 3am. And these are not kids who are at sports practice every afternoon.

We also have a very competitive Asan population. There are parents who take their elementary and middle school kids to the high school awards ceremony, "to motivate them." They love to quiz my kids on now they achieved their success (awards=success.) They attend the science Olympiad tournament awards ceremony (not the competition, which is actually interesting) years before their kids are old enough to join the team. (I'm not clear why this is- either "motivation" or figuring out which kids to befriend and emulate.) Sure, this behavior may be normal in many countries. In my world, it is toxic. So far, we have been lucky enough to co-exist with it, but for less naturally able kids, it is certainly stressful.

What do the kids think?

Depression and suicide rates are elevated in the Asian-American youth population.

They think "Winning!"

As Jon has just handily done, in making this post.

Our situation is much like cricket's by the way-- while it's a quiet/low profile place on the national scale, the competition/toxicity and ethnic mix here is very reminiscent of places like PAUSD and that in the article.

Fixing the problem isn't a school-side thing-- it can't be, because that isn't what drives some of it, and even if administrators could fix it, it'd be deep into custodial interference, because parents are the ones clamoring for a lot of the pressure, ironically.

Our SD has nearly 30% of students ID'ed as GT, and ironically, because of that, resources that would actually be needed/helpful for PG kiddos are in such high demand from overly-pushy parents of kids who don't really belong in them... that the 1% of kids in this town who are truly EG+ get left out in the cold unless they have pushy parents too.

You definitely learn who your friends are, that's for sure, when you live in an area like this and your kid is one that effortlessly makes the others look not so extraordinary by comparison. School administrators and teachers know dross from gold there-- but they've learned not to say so to parents who want their kids to have all of the "right" credentials.

IMMV, of course. But DD began making her own observations (mostly horror and concern) by the time she was 11 or 12, and seeing her very bright-to-moderately-gifted peers struggling under the load.

It was also made clear that local HS administrators hold a fairly high level of disdain-- poorly masked, too-- for "average" students. Hearing my DD's PSAT scores changed the landscape significantly re: seating her for the SAT with accommodations. I found that disgusting.

I have deep respect for music - it is about as important to me as math or other academics. In other words, I take it as seriously as many on this forum take acceleration and differentiation and placement issues. All kids should have the opportunity to learn and perform even if they do not value the privilege. However, it is best by middle school age, if they perform within their competence range so that they can enjoy the experience and be proud of their accomplishments and avoid disparagement from their upset peers. It is one thing for parents and students to suffer through some badly performed pieces but quite another to have every single piece in the concert butchered.

According to the 16 page letter linked from the article, the "right to squeak" policy addresses the instrumental music programs for 4th through 8th grade. I assumed the "right to squeak" is more relevant in middle school (6th - 8th) for the simple reason that you shouldn't be squeaking by then.

Our instrumental music program begins in 4th grade, but performance is not an issue at all because 4th grade is purely exploratory for all kids. There are two performances in 5th grade and every student fully participates and nobody expects a solid performance from these elementary students. However, the teacher also offers solos and duets and ensembles to any student who wants to accept the challenge and put in the extra practice. Many do and as a result, the concert has a mixture of good, tolerable and unpleasant performances.

In middle school, each grade has their own band and orchestra as well as a school-wide honor band and honor orchestra by teacher selection. Both music teachers adamantly want to group their classes by skill level but the administration won't budge because they want grouping by grade (age). Two or three times a year, all the band groups perform in one concert and all the orchestra groups perform in another concert. The honor and 8th grade groups generally provide the best performances in these combined concerts. There is no "right to squeak" law from the top so the teachers do have some discretion but everyone is encouraged to learn the few pieces - easy enough vis-a-vis their expected curriculum level if they only put in some practice. Some kids are lazy but they are socially savvy enough to only pretend play through sections that they did not practice. Some oblivious students, mostly in band and rarely in orchestra, exercise their right to squeak regularly and play wrong notes loudly to a different tempo and/or rhythm from the rest of the band - let's just say that these students are neither appreciated nor welcomed by their classmates. They would have been better off if they were only allowed to perform pieces that they can actually play. Many (all?) of these students do leave the band and/or orchestra programs by 8th grade if not by 7th grade. With particularly bad performances, the whole band group, not just the culprits, gets to suffer again during the next class in the form of a lecture/critique/writing analysis class work.

I agree that this sort of tiger-parenting approach is toxic, and have no doubt that the school in Plainsboro are toxic (though thanks to the member who made that fact depressingly clear).

At the same time, Asian parents are presumably well aware of the fact that top-tier colleges discriminate against their children. This is in addition to the arms-race insanity that's driven in large part by admissions committees that react positively to MORE extracurriculars and MORE AP classes and etc. So, to some extent, they're responding to an unjust situation.

My original messages weren't meant as an endorsement of pressure-cooker environments. I'm concerned that some of the solutions that have been proposed in New Jersey will actually make the pressure worse --- hence the paragraph in my first message about cutting homework loads and looking for a way to force the colleges to change admissions policies.

Palo Alto isn't the only district around here with a crazy-bad level of pressure. Forgive me if I've related this story here before, but it's on-point to this discussion: my daughter ended up in the hospital for a couple days over the Thanksgiving break a few years back. Her roommate was a kindergartner from Mountain View who'd had an appendectomy. This girl was doing homework in her bed while still hooked up to an IV line, DURING VACATION. She was expected to write a paragraph in her journal every day (in kindergarten!), do math worksheets, and etc. If that scene isn't a poster child for the kind of environment that drives teenagers to step in front of trains, I don't know what is.

Regarding it not being the school's job, etc--I disagree. Someone has to do something here, and it isn't going to be parents, generally speaking, because parents are deeply invested in their particular child making it even when they recognize the system is sick. One possible action that came up for this school system was strictly limiting the # of AP classes a student may take. It's an example of something schools could do, and these districts would be a great place to do it. I feel the same about the no-homework nights--there should be more. Another idea would be disallowing major projects over breaks. I'm sure we could come up with other ideas quite easily, though really the kids would know best. The change has to come first in the districts where things are the most competitive and everyone is going to Ivies, etc--like this one. Someone has to step out of the ring, and I think that's what's being attempted here. I don't know, again, if it is being done correctly. But the effort to do it at all is heartening to me. This is not about gifted programming, IMO.

Yes, but...college admissions. Limiting the number of AP classes will put the students at a disadvantage compared to students from all the other schools that don't limit AP classes. Admissions committees use industrial metrics to judge a candidate's fitness, and the formula includes the number of AP or other "rigorous" courses.

NOTE: I actually agree with you, and have long thought that the AP program as a whole has some serious deficiencies, including the expectation to teach yourself a large chunk of material over the summer.

It's just that, in the current environment, limiting AP classes may end up stressing out the parents even more, which will lead many to put even more pressure on the kids (who themselves may feel pressure regardless). For example, parents might push their kids into high-workload summer and/or online classes, such as those offered by Stanford's EPGY and its online high school. Some online classes are taught live via video link and run early in the morning to accommodate students in US high schools and students in Asia, meaning that the kids here could lose more sleep. The local high school can't control this kind of thing.

It's a complex, messy, ugly problem. Schools, parents, admissions committees, kids, and economic insecurity all play roles.