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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,733
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I am beginning to learn so much about Fountas & Pinnell. It seems like book access is not just a problem here, but a problem in any district using F&P. Yes. The research basis for F&P is...shall we say, inadequate? Maybe this another thing that was helpful in my son's situation - the school uses DRA and "100 book challenge" the DRA tests I think are pretty specific. Like I said, they also gave my son a more comprehensive test (that they don't normally give) as well which only reinforced how high he was... Fortunately, he did exceedingly well . All of these tests were given by so called reading specialists from the higher grades and not his regular teacher (much to my relief). I guess the DRA is a slightly better, maybe more flexible system.
Last edited by Irena; 09/23/15 07:15 AM.
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Joined: May 2012
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So, my son's friend for instance. He also went in at the beginning of the year at the ceiling/end of grade level. He stayed at the same level all year. His parents told me the teacher refused to test him. The child was really upset and unhappy being forced to read books well below his level, that he was not interested in or challenged by. He stayed at the level the ENTIRE grade. He was held in from recess whenever he was caught reading a book not from his 'just right reading level basket.' (My son said he was in form recess for almost an entire month before they broke him!) He was forced during the time in from recess to read books that were at his "just right reading level," which was too low (my son reported that friend said he still did not actually read the crappy books, he "prayed instead"). He began to refuse to read at all at home and his mother lied (and still does) on all his reading logs because he gets in more trouble at school for not reading at home and he also prevents his class for being able to enter into raffles and such for prizes (the class can only enter if all kids have the requisite number of lines logged on reading log). He HATED reading by the end of the year. At the beginning of the next year, he was still at the same level as the beginning of the previous year. He NEVER reads at home, the mom and dad lie on the logs because the stress and tantrums reading causes at home now. I have known this child since kindergarten. In kindergarten he was advcanced reader and loved to read. In 1st, I remember him being the same way. It was in 2nd grade when the refusal to test beyond grade level started and when his teacher refused to allow him to read any books other than the ones that were in the "class basket" at the too low level.
They destroyed this kid's love for reading. And they won. But he made no progress in over a year! What did they get out of that? Yeah, they won the power play ... but they did not eve get to show "progress/growth" It does not make sense! That's a terrible story. I would have been all over that school. That's the sort of thing that should be on the news. Punishing a child for reading more advanced books? Stupidest, most controlling idea ever. I encouraged the mom to advocate and shared what I was doing but it's uncomfortable and inconvenient - meetings and the arguing... So they thought lying on the logs and such would suffice and get them through without causing inconvenience and problems. Perhaps they feel it did but I see a very disengaged child who started out as a very good reader who liked reading and now refuses to read for enjoyment at all. I mean he's young, maybe he'll find his way back in adolescence ... But it's sad and, imo, his reading and critical thinking skills are stagnating if not regressing. The school sure did a great job of making sure he "evened out" by third grade. I'm pleased that I went through all I did . My kid reads for hours, his vocab immense, and he loves it. It also seems to affect his creative writing as well. it was really unpleasant to go through but it was most definitely worth it.
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 266
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Curious, if a teacher using F&P assesses a reader as 2 years above level (P in spring of 1st), going beyond the F&P guidelines already, would you assume that she stopped at some point just to stop, or might she have stopped at actual high point? Super curious what the fall assessment is going to be after this discussion here, considering child is happily reading V level books 4 months later.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Curious, if a teacher using F&P assesses a reader as 2 years above level (P in spring of 1st), going beyond the F&P guidelines already, would you assume that she stopped at some point just to stop, or might she have stopped at actual high point? Super curious what the fall assessment is going to be after this discussion here, considering child is happily reading V level books 4 months later. Now I am officially sad. They will not allow our kids to go above level K in first grade. I guess I should be happy though that not everyone is being held back this way. I thought it was all F&P kids.
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Joined: Feb 2015
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Now I am officially sad. They will not allow our kids to go above level K in first grade.
I guess I should be happy though that not everyone is being held back this way. I thought it was all F&P kids. Well, that teacher was very experienced and has a reading passion, so we may have just been luckier than I thought, even within our school, considering the district itself is not supportive of grade-acceleration, or even SSA before middle school.
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Joined: Dec 2012
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And of course they believe that 'everone evens out by third grade' so anyone who shows signs of not evening out must be slowed down or if that doesn't work not assessed any higher.
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Joined: May 2012
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I have a meeting set up with the teacher, but I am feeling a little bit stuck. If this is the school/district policy - I would assume she has had this conversation probably dozens of times with many, many parents over the years. I am guessing the conversation will go something like this: "I have tested your daughter, and she did very well. She passed her baseline assessment. But, I think she is having difficulty with "drawing references beyond the text". I will work with her over the next few weeks and I will test her again at the next level"... October goes by, November goes by and just when it is time for her to move up as per district policy - surprise, surprise - it is time for a new test. Meanwhile, she is still reading several years below her actual ability level. This is CRAZY! I am thinking maybe have the principal attend ?... and/or maybe spec-ed director? I usually get nowhere with just the teacher - could be the teacher is stonewalling or may be the teacher's hands are tied... either way, it is helpful to start bringing in higher-ups who do have the authority to say "okay, let's see what we can do here..." ... In my son's case, he has an iep for gifted and for disabilities, so I am completely at ease involving higher-ups... not sure if you would be uncomfortable with that but I am thinking you may need to at least involve the principal? Does your child have a GIEP or anything?
Last edited by Irena; 09/23/15 04:32 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2015
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Now I am officially sad. They will not allow our kids to go above level K in first grade.
I guess I should be happy though that not everyone is being held back this way. I thought it was all F&P kids. Ridiculous. That's just a waste of everyone's time. Our teacher started my son way too low (to give room for improvement I suppose) but is now happy to have him move up as fast he needs. Reading at our school isn't limited at all, so even if he's not reading at level at school, his home books can go as high as he can manage.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,428
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Every time I read these threads, I feel really grateful that reading levels don't appear to be emphasized at my childen's school. (I've never received one or been given any metrics other than once, my child's correct WPM.) To use your example: What if little Jonny wanted to read War and Peace? Then Sally and Sue's parents find out and go to the teacher and say they want Sally and Sue to read War and Peace as well. What is the harm in that? So they all read war and peace - Johnny might actually be able to understand it, while Sally and Sue read it, but it is hard - and they only can follow pieces of it...maybe they even need their parents to help them out with sections of it.... Would that be such a bad thing? From a teacher's POV, the harm would be that some kids really are not capable of reading war and Peace (or whatever, obviously) and trying to read it to keep up with the Joneses will keep them from developing the grade-level skills they need to work on. Some children really do need to work with controlled phonics readers, move ahead slowly, etc so they can gain fluency and confidence. You don't want frustrated kids. At the same time, the flaw in this argument arises because I generally assume that a child who is frustrated and having difficulty will make that clear.
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 599
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My son's enrichment group (a thirty minute period in school where most kids got interventions but those not needing interventions got enrichment) consisted of a few advanced students and a few identified as gifted. I would assume that my son was the only PG child in the small group of 5th graders. Near the end of the school year they found a novel set for the group to read. (I looked it up on Accelerated Reader and they say 10th grade level and lexile says 1030). The group worked through the first few chapters and every kid said they wanted a different book other than my son who was enjoying the heck out of it. So once again, my son finished the book independently at home and the group got a book closer to what the others could handle.
Kids will tell you when they are over their heads either verbally if they are comfortable with it or by their behavior. Just like they will say when stuff is too easy and boring and they want more of a challenge. But there was no harm in his group trying. They were exposed to it. They may try it later and like it. They know a bit about more than the first three chapters because my son enthusiastically would talk about the book.
I tried to read the Narnia series to my son when he was 7 during our night time read aloud. He had the ability to read the series at 7 so my plan was to read one or two aloud and then suggest he finish the series on his own. But he didn't even want to listen to it at 7. No problem I returned the two I had checked out to the library. The next year his teacher suggested it, he was ready for it content-wise a year later, and he tore through the series on his own.
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