Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Jobs at elite firms

You are overthinking this .

snork

Agreed. Money. Perhaps a bit of prestige and ambition thrown into the mix, and sometimes, a love of numbers. Especially numbers involving money. Circular...

The essence of entrepreneurs... and sharks.

Agreed. Learn a lot and move on... many do.

I agree with most of what Sue wrote. To elaborate further:

1. A good startup culture is highly collaborative, not competitive. Everyone has the same goal which is to make the company successful. In contrast some of the larger companies I have worked in had huge issues with corporate fiefdoms and inter-group backstabbing. Only a fraction of the people who have worked in large companies can make the transition to a startup, and the reverse is probably true as well.

2. This combination of highly talented and intense individuals, and a common goal, is what allows a startup to (sometimes) do what a larger company cannot do with 10x the people and 100x the budget. It is very much David vs Goliath, and if you succeed, that high permeates your life. The lows are also worse--you may fail, or run out of money and be forced to find another job. That terrifies some people.

3. Most people, having never experienced #1 and #2 above, really don't get startups and why anybody would want to work there.

4. In my most successful startup, it was right around employee #1000 that I noticed a big change in the applicants. These applicants were more accustomed to 40 hour work weeks, 3-4 weeks of vacation, and fussed that we didn't spend money on the Aeron chairs they were used to.

5. Amazon seems to be trying to keep that startup culture even though they have 100K+ employees. Reinforcing what Sue ways above, I'm not sure there are 100K+ employees across all companies that fit the right mold. That is why most people look at Amazon and immediately consider it to be torture.

Where I differ with Sue's account is that my base salary at the startups were about the same as the more established companies. Health benefits were also generous. Where startups skimp is on vacation (2 weeks a year) and no bonus, because you are working for the stock options. And of course, on a per-hour basis, you get paid less at a startup because you put in more hours.

Even though only one of the four startups was very successful, I have no regrets. It was a great time in my life, but not one I would go back to now that I am in my 40s.

Just goes to show that, as with college, "elite" employment is for suckers. The only way to win the game is not to play.

Also,:


By "best" in the underlined selection, the author means, "most socially/morally compromised." Because at this sort of competition, ability is a small part of the ultimate outcome... abandonment of family ties is a minimum requirement, and an ability to manipulate in the workplace counts for more than results.

So you have no interest in working in a collaborative environment, where almost everyone is quite bright, and where employees sometimes get to work on problems that nobody knows yet how to solve?

What environments do you like to work in, Dude?

I never knew that such workplaces were the sole purview of "elite" employers. Hmm.

I think that maybe DH and I have been doing it wrong, in that case.

I had to laugh at the reference to 80 hour work weeks because, in my final month or two of pregnancy with DS, I worked several weeks with 100+ hours, and none less than 80. The mindset associated with such intense and unidimensional living is exhilarating-- being immersed in and leading highly relevant and avant-garde projects, knowing that nobody (or few!) in the world has (have) done what you are doing, that feeling is phenomenal. With a husband in a similarly paced field at the time, and given that DS wasn't yet born, it was ideal. We'd reconnect at home and treasure our time together, knowing that the breakneck pace was one that would be short-lived.

As with anything, work environment selection has its seasons in life. I had DS when I was relatively young and, while I would strongly prefer to opt for a predominantly family-centric lifestyle during DS' childhood and adolescence, I would return to the fast-paced work I was in previously in a heartbeat once DS is away at university. When you truly love your "work", it becomes a vehicle to self-actualization.

What such firms, recruiters, and firm alumni must do is convey an accurate representation of the demands and limitations of such work to prospective hires so that the people who would self-select into profoundly demanding careers are able to make well-informed decisions on where to work and when. There is, IMO, far too much misinformation about the capacity of workers to "have it all". The idea that one can have everything one desires at all times is preposterous. At every point in time, at least one desire or need will be subjugated to another which is temporally more urgent. These firms won't be appealing to most people for that reason, but that's fine. Not everyone must live the same life or value the same experiences equally.

Both my husband and I have each worked for Amazon for over a decade (he 12.5 yrs, myself 15yrs). I worked at a startup before going to work at Amazon. I have seen the culture change as the company has grown but at its core it remains an organization focused on customer satisfaction. I started there when I was 37, old for working in a still start up mentality company. I have also had the opportunity to work in many of the different divisions of Amazon (outside of the warehouses). I think the NY Times article was intentionally inflammatory. Friends I know who were interviewed had either their comments edited significantly or were not included if there was more positive than negative. Amazon is like any other company, it has its share of flaws. I have witnessed them. Thankfully they were few. I don't work 100 hours per week. Sometimes I will work 60 when we have a big project going to be released. However, that is rare. The same is true for my husband. I have 10 year old twins and no nanny. There is no way I could work that many hours, nor would I want to. I am mature enough to insist on a work life balance that my managers have respected. I took ownership for that and no one has given me any grief. Could there be managers that are cold and heartless? Absolutely. However, when key long term employees leave your team, your management starts to wonder why. Keeping great employees happy so they remain on your team is a key requirement for managers to be successful. After 15 years, would I take a job any place else like Google, etc? Well, they have offered. And I always turn them down. My MBA isn't from an Ivy league school but that hasn't prevented me from being successful. Working effectively and efficiently, along with standing up for what is important to me at that point in my life has allowed me to be successful in my career.