Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Is this a 2E thing or what?

OK. My son has had his testing. He's supposed to be gifted. Usually I think that he probably is. Then he will act so dense about something it drives me nuts! Are my expectations too high? Could this be part of his other E (which seems to be some unholy combo of TS, ADHD, ASD, and OCD)?

I'm so used to just explaining something to my DS and having him get it. Especially math stuff. Then randomly something will just seem to be impossible to explain to him. Most recently we started doing more formal workbook learning and I'm encouraging him to be independent at it. So the other morning I was looking over his work and it said something like find the difference between 32 and 48. I look at his answer and it looks like 3248.

I thought he just didn't try or got distracted and wrote the numbers he saw. So I asked him about it. He says the difference is 32 is 32 and 48 is 48. I thought let's use smaller numbers to more easily illustrate the point. I say, what's the difference between 1 and 2. "One is straight and 2 has curves." I explain that what's the difference means to subtract and see how many numbers are between them. I say what's the difference between 2 and 12. "Two is a one digit number and 12 is a two digit number." At that point I might have yelled "I said it means subtract!" I might also have decided to let it go and hand it off to Dad who has infinite patience in these matters.

Dad gives it a go. He says to him the difference is the number of numbers between two numbers. He give 2 and 10 as an example. My son says 7. As in there are 7 numbers actually between them. That was at least getting close and Dad managed to get the concept into him from there using a number line.

I'm thinking, this kid can't possibly be gifted.

Currently he's interested in square roots because he read something about it in a book, but he's having a hard time grasping it as well. He knows the definition and a few square roots, but he's not really even in the ballpark guessing the square root of things most of the time, other than very small numbers.

I suck at teaching him because I really don't like math and I have no patience as a teacher. Maybe I have no idea what a 5 year old should be able to grasp? So far with my son we just explained things once in simple terms and he seemed to get them.

Just in general DS has issues focusing on the important points. He's the kid who when asked to find what comes next in the pattern 1, 2, 3 says red. Looking at the patterns you see a slight printing difference where the 1 and 3 look more washed out than the 2 and could be mistaken for light red or maybe even pink. Most people would just think he has no idea how to count.

How is a tree similar to a bush? They're both taller than me if I lay down. Huh? If I ask for more info he goes on to say they both have leaves. They are both green and brown. They both have roots. They both need water and sun, grow from seeds etc. He never says they are both plants, which I think is what you are supposed to come up with to those kinds of questions.

He definitely doesn't talk like the other kids. The other day he got new shoes and told me "I'm really worried the other kids are going to see my new shoes and yearn to have the same ones for themselves."

Recently he got to play a board game with an 8 year old boy in the local gifted program and my son's strategy and understanding of the game was way beyond the other kid. I absolutely couldn't believe the other kid wasn't using defensive strategies my son picked right up on. I expected a gifted kid 3 years older to kick his butt honestly. In fact what happened is my son got bored and annoyed because the kid wasn't playing well!

So it's odd. Sometimes my son seems so smart and other times he seems so dense it makes me crazy. Is this normal? Am I just expecting too much? Is it possible any of this relates to the other issues he has going on?

I know I should chill out, but I honestly say to his dad at least once a week (usually when he pees his pants, grrr) "And this is a kid who is supposed to be gifted?" I'm just not familiar with normal for 5 year olds I guess.

Probably because all I see is them easily enjoying themselves and socializing while my son has difficulties. I don't even get a chance to hear them talk or see where there are on academic tasks. Online resources like PBS development tracker seem so skewed towards making parents of slow kids feel good that I can't get a good idea of what the average 5 year old really can do (which is different from what they are supposed to do).

I'm feeling odd about advocating for my son since I feel so wishy washy myself on the issue. Everyone says get a GIEP, but I feel weird going in insisting my kid is in need of specialized instruction when I feel so conflicted on the issue myself. We already have an extensive why your kid is an epic fail IEP (sorry, but that's what it reads like to me). I'm not sure I even want to talk to the people at the school again... ever.

OK, everything I post gets too long, so I'm gonna just stop now Thanks for all of your help!

It's actually a hallmark of many gifted kiddos to answer what are generally considered to be straightforward questions in unusual ways, particularly as you get into the highly and profoundly gifted levels.

Has your DS taken an individual cognitive assessment (i.e., an IQ test such as the WISC or SB)? Often having an external assessment that is taken seriously by professionals and educators puts it into perspective for you as a parent. I know it did for myself when I got DS's results back.

PanzerAzelSaturn, I went back and read some of your previous posts, and I see you've gotten all of that info already. So my apologies, but I don't think I would be of much help.

You guys have both been helpful One problem right now is that the school did not put anything about being gifted or special academic accommodations into the IEP. They also said he does not meet their criteria for gifted as he "Did not complete the IQ test", even though their psych gave him a score above the cutoff. Because it is GAI and he only completed 5 sections they won't count the score. They have not offered in any way to allow him to finish the test. And even if they did my understanding is that he couldn't really score lower than the GAI he currently has (it would still be calculated from the same subtests, right?) and since he can't do a timed test (ADHD and tics have him distracted more often than not) there is no option of an FSIQ.

My son is not a slow thinker though. He is slow to realize someone said something to him. Slow to hear what it was (I repeat everything at least 3 times, but only until I get his attention and get a conversation going). Slow to get around to answering (usually because he runs around the room 5 times before even starting to think about answering). But he talks fast and when he starts on something he does it quickly, right up until he gets distracted. He's quick at math and puzzles and thinks fast when making up stories or playing the DnD type game his dad made up for him. When he is well regulated and calm (maybe 5% of his life) he shows very good ability to think and do things quickly. This is never going to show up on the IQ test.

The peeing his pants thing is definitely him not knowing far enough ahead that he needs to go combined with waiting to the last second because he hates to stop what he is doing. He rarely has a full accident, just enough that he needs new undies. Usually he has a few weeks without accidents and then a week with accidents multiple times a day. Those weeks are bad for everything.

He was potty trained for poop entirely by 2.5, but pee has been an ongoing problem. I pulled him out of OT and PT a few months ago. He was miserable there and neither was able to help with any of our issues anyway. I'm still looking into finding a new OT and just giving up on the PT. It was way too discouraging for my son because the stuff they wanted him to do was hard and he kept failing and he hates failing.

The school district won't give him speech, so I guess I could look for private again. My issue is that all of the private people I have found so far don't work on the pragmatic stuff or don't take our insurance. Speech is $60 plus for half an hour, so a real investment to go enough to see any improvement.

I love the idea for the idiom box and the riddles. I think my son will like both of those activities and I know his dad will.

So, I guess it really is possible for a kid to be gifted and occasionally frustratingly dense? I'm waiting for the magical age this all gets easier Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I need to believe that it does and that it's not too far off!

Others can speak to the 2E aspect, but I can completely understand why your son answered as he did. Now, if you switch to teaching it as subtraction (i.e., you have 12, you take away 2, what do you have) and then he says something other than 10, there might be a second E or something else going on...

But, let me share my conversation with my 5 year old this morning in hopes that you will feel better about literal answers. Me "What's the difference between Book and Look?" (I'm going for the initial sound or letter, because that's what we've been discussing.) Him "they have completely different meanings."

Then he did say, "there are two differences, the meaning and the sound." But he was correct the first time, too.

Oh, our older one is 8. He is still very stubborn about the answers he comes up with and can do some really dense stuff, but I'd say it's far better than when he was 5. On the other hand, now he likes to see what parental buttons he can push to near, but not quite, the limit.

Yes, this is a 2e thing, yes, this is a GT thing.

Literal interpretations are particularly common when we are talking about someone who has had indicators of being on the autistic spectrum somewhere. Another fun resource is Amelia Bedelia books, which are basically all about literal vs figurative language, and the crazy things that happen when Amelia confuses the two.

Thanks everyone We have all of the Amelia Bedelia chapter books and a few of the original leveled readers. I'm not too sure my son gets the humor. I explain that step on it means hurry up for instance, but I'm not sure he really gets that it's funny to step on something when someone says step on it as hurry up. Of course he does think it's funny that Amelia Bedelia steps on the pie and it makes a huge mess The old Amelia Bedelia stuff is hard for any kid to get these days I would think. No one sews anymore, so trimming the fat doesn't really make sense to any kids I know. People don't tend to say draw the curtains anymore either or a lot of the other stuff in the books. Of course I explain the meaning and how AB misinterpreted things, but I think it was probably more funny back when the books were written.

I'm glad to hear that density and giftedness aren't mutually exclusive Some of the answers my son gives to questions are just complete face palm moments, lol. We read a book and I'll ask why he thought the character did what it did. "Because he is brown." Really? You think the mouse ran away because it is brown? I'm not sure if he's just being lazy or if he thinks colors influence motivation in some way. OTOH, he has told numerous times that the one part of a local highway is the red section because it smells red (when I asked him what red smells like he said spicy and waxy), so who knows what colors mean to this kid.

When I said no one sews anymore, I didn't really mean no one. Certainly no one in my home does though. Actually I know a lot of people who knit and do some fabric arts, but not the sort of sewing that involves trimwork. What I really meant was that in this modern age where you can buy anything already made sewing has become a thing of the past. Something you only do because you want to, not because you have to. I think it's a great skill to teach your kids. I would teach my son if I could do it myself.

None of the kids we know have any experience with sewing. We did a year of early childhood Waldorf stuff when my son was 2. Had we continued that I'm sure he would have known what it means to trim something, well other than hair

Here we just close the curtains. We also don't put out the lights, we turn off the lights. A lot of the old books also include dusting upholstered furniture, which was confusing to my son. He always thought it was so odd when Toad was hitting his chair with a stick!

I still sew, but I am the only one I know who does.

My DS10 has constantly baffled me because he says stuff like that… he does well in school, but isn't interested in academics really.

However, he can talk about biology and zoology almost like an adult would. So he will be talking about something animal related in a very sophisticated way, but then is afraid to put cream cheese on his bagel because it "won't be right".

My son also has an unholy mix of TS, OCD, anxiety and inattentiveness (not sure if it's actually ADHD). Hang in there.

In my DD's class they just read Stewart Little, and I found myself having to explain so much of the language to the kids because the world has just changed so much since it was written in the 1940s...

I just had a huge déjà vu experience reading this post. It sounds *exactly* like my DS at and about that age. Also an "unholy mix" and 2E. FWIW, it's probably a good thing you see the "E" in this, because my interpretation (then, not now that he's nearly 13) was always G not E.

I understand the concern and frustration you feel, but I'd reframe it in terms of *density* and try to see it as a difference in perception. I adore your son's answers re: difference. Such an ambiguous word! He's out of the box, and that's okay, just have to teach him what is "usually meant."

My DS is also a literal thinker but once he understands an idiom, he usually gets a big kick out of word-play on it.