Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Math progression questions

Based on the discussion about the Typical math progressions for high achievers, am I understanding correctly that it doesn't really pay to subject accelerate more than a year in sequence due to forgetting the middle school studies when it comes to college? (That is, unless the person is likely to graduate early and go to college, then it's just shifting the whole process ahead.)

As someone who didn't have Calculus offered at my HS, and didn't need it in college, I'm curious what happens in, say, Calculus (in grade 12, if available, or in college), if a child (of high ability, who needs fewer repetitions) simply went through a normal or one-year-ahead track, vs someone who had a broader/deeper compliment earlier.

And why does the Common Core standard shift Algebra II to earlier a year -- just to give more opportunity for higher math in HS? It seems like if it's not relevant to many college/career paths, and if many kids aren't able to handle Algebra until they are older/more developmentally ready, that it's unnecessarily ambitious.

LOL. I have to disagree, but then my mathy kid is not one of those who needs repetition or easily forgets previous math topics. It may have to do with the way he learns. He is an autodidact and he tends to assimilate concepts rather than memorize procedures. Anyhow, there is no reason or chance to get rusty in his case. DS will take GT Algebra II in 7th, GT Pre-Calculus in 8th, AP Calculus AB in 9th and AP Calculus BC in 10th. Our state requires four years of high school math so DS will be required to study Differential Equations, Linear Algebra and/or AP Statistics in 11th and 12th.

A situation like yours is I was thinking about while I was reading the thread -- hence feeling perplexed. I wonder if is it just a difference between moderately/highly vs profoundly gifted? I find there's a general consensus here of supporting kids moving at their own increased pace, yet it seems like there's also resistance to that when it comes to higher level math and college (though not here as much as in education in general). I'm curious where people draw the line in acceleration.

Perhaps the line needs to be drawn individually for each kid. For us, DS was never accelerated as fast as he was able per testing results - we actually made an affirmative decision to choose a less radical path. The compromise was to accelerate DS enough to prevent harm from destruction of the "spark".

For DD, who is not mathy and who will not study AP Calculus AB until 11th grade, we chose not to accelerate at all. She actually could have handled Pre-Algebra easily in 5th and we knew that by 4th grade. However, she tends to learn everything quickly although not in a deep way. In her case, I can see her mastering the procedures immediately and acing everything but perhaps missing the deeper connections and ultimately vulnerable to potentially forgetting down the road.

Where I went to college I had to have 6 hours of math for a liberal arts degree. The school didn't care what I took in those 6 hours so I went into calculus 2 then 3 and neither was relevant for my major.

It seems to me you could continue to accelerate math right into college if needed regardless of whether it's required for a major or not. At least, it seems to work for liberal arts. Perhaps it wouldn't work so well in other types of majors.

I would think a particularly mathy kid would he able to jump into higher level math in college rather than having to backtrack and go back into college algebra.

I wonder if you realize you just said in the same breath that your daughter is not mathy and could handle pre-algebra in 5th grade. AP Calc in 11th grade is also considered accelerated by most lights, as discussed in the other thread. My child can opt for AB or BC in 11th; both are considered accelerated tracks. This is not, of course, individual acceleration; maybe that is what you meant.

One issue here is what math you need in college very much depends on what major you are interested in. Most schools start accelerating bright math kids at 5th/6th grades. Few kids this age have a solid idea of what they are going to be when they grow up or what major they might take and therefore what is useful. If your child ends up going on to a humanities course in college, the Calculus & or Stats they take in H.S. even if it's 9th grade can be the last math they never need to take.

It also depends on what "higher" math you have available to your student. I think its not necessary good for a student to take Calculus as a freshman (9th) or younger, if they aren't going to take higher math until they get to college 3+ years later. AP Stats, AP Computer Science isn't higher level. BUT there are other options to consider for these students including higher level math at university while still in H.S., going to college early, and some H.S. offer higher level math. What is crazy is if you are playing the get into one of the elite universities game, taking classes at a university don't help in the quest for top SAT's or top GPA's. Taking classes at a local university can hurt your GPA. The best way to play that game is take and get A's in as many AP classes as possible.

But it can work. I just suggest researching a PLAN for what you do if you go too far about the norm. (About 10% of DS's high school class take AP Calculus as a junior.) My husband finished H.S. math in junior high and went on to take math classes at university while in H.S., and went on to get a PhD in a math related field. Yes, it was to his advantage to accelerate that much.


Not sure I understand this question. The way it works in my district is the honors classes, ie the ones that are broader/deeper are taken by the most advanced, accelerated students. The students who take the sequence slower get a more cookie cutter program.

If a student wants to go into higher level math in university. It's more important IMO for the student to have depth. Understand WHY the procedures they are being taught work, be able to prove it and be able to see how to take a non-standard approach to a problem.

This is not my understanding. The "normal" Common Core plan is students take
Commom Core 8 - 8th grade..
Math1/Algebra I - 9th
Math2/Geometry = 10th
Math3/Algebra II -- 11th

This is actually LATER than it was 5 years ago. This is actually pushing things back by around 1/2 year.. 5-10 years ago California was pushing all students take Algebra in 8th grade. (Didn't really work) Common Core 8 has some topics from what used to be Algebra I & Geometry. And all of the above includes topics from Trig/Pre-calc.

Most average kids took either Algebra II in sophmore or junior year. And then a year of pre-calculus if they wanted to. Note my state only requires two years of H.S. math (must pass basic algebra) & most universities only require 3.

College Algebra?

College Algebra isn't really a college level course, it's a remedial college course similar to Algebra II/Trig to get students ready for Calculus and doesn't usually cover math requirements. There are many other options a non-STEM college student to meet college math requirements. Statistics, Linear Algebra, Logic, Discrete Math.

I'm not a mathy person (only went through Alg II in high school) and college algebra definitely counted as college math credit when I was in school. Obviously it's not going to count for some majors, and is not a class that a kid who took calculus in high school is going to take. Remedial math is below college algebra, for students who aren't even ready for that class.

I also had to take calculus for business/social science majors (watered down calculus I guess - it was a really interesting class) and statistics. I aced those classes, which either means that I'm actually decent at math, or that the other students in those classes were just really terrible at math. Maybe a little bit of both.

Appleton, I don't think that's standard. You can get credit in college for taking algebra, but it won't usually fulfill a math distribution requirement. Usually, you would need to continue with stats and/or calc, like you did. That's why there is AP stats and AP Calc, but no AP Algebra. Algebra is high school math (or sometimes even elementary or middle school math for accelerated kids).