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Regarding this:


Were impartial selection procedures used to determine who JOINS math team?

I'm sure DD would have been "chosen" for math team if that was done based on grades and standardized test scores, but of course, it's voluntary.

(There's a lot more to this discussion, but come now.)

IIRC, high-ability Asian girls are outscoring high-ability Asian boys on some math measures.

This. DD attended the math team's first meeting at our urging- it was her first and last time attending. The way it was structured/organized guaranteed that she would not enjoy it. There are girls on the team, but as UM noted, they are predominantly Asian girls, and the team is mostly male students. (Though it is notable that at this year's school awards ceremony, the class math awards and the AIME/AMC awards were dominated by girls).

My DD, and probably many other girls, are competition-avoidant- DD qualified for, but declined to participate in the school spelling and Geobees in middle school, despite urging from us and teachers. (And as UM noted, I suspect she would qualify for the math team if it was a team that was chosen, not based on volunteering). I think it is a combination of disliking competition, and not wanting to draw attention to her smarts, which contributed to some bullying in the past. As an aside, now that DD is in high school, she seems to be handling competitive activities much better, and is (mostly) embracing her abilities, so things can improve.

Anyone can attend meetings of the after-school math club. Who represents the school at meets is determined by who scores best on tryouts. I think that is impartial.

I have wondered if some non-Asian children and girls notice that the math club (or the local chess club) is mostly Asian and male and decide that it therefore not for them. But then it is their own biases that are at fault.

I tend to agree.

I think it is naive to attribute the bias *solely* to the kids vs. the environment they experience up to the point of making the decision to participate or not.

That said, my strong-willed DD *refused* to participate in MathCounts throughout middle school, despite personal invitations from the teacher who mentored the school team (and who is also the coach of the state team, which generally does quite well in national competition). I have no regrets about that, and was glad she had the time for other activities. She does not need the competition to motivate her - she has just finished Calc AB as a high school freshman, with a deeper understanding of the concepts covered in that course than most of the engineering undergraduates I teach.

If participation on the math team is predicated on membership in the after-school math club, then that school is doing its team a tremendous disservice, because the majority of stellar math students have other interests besides math.

Besides, everyone knows the math club and the chess club are for NERDS*, right? Socially-conscious GT students avoid them in favor of more socially acceptable activities: sports, music, drama, debate team, robotics, etc.


*By this I mean gifted students who lag in social development. The Asian tiger-parenting method is known to inhibit social development.

Math club meets once a week. Students can participate in other extracurriculars and still be on the math team. Math team aspirants don't need need to be at each club meeting, although missing the material presented could disadvantage them. They do need to attend on tryout days. How would you choose team members for math meets?

If some kids who might benefit from math competitions think they are for nerds, that is their problem.

I wouldn't, because I wasn't into such things. Spend a Saturday taking math tests? I'll pass.

I did a couple of them in middle school anyway, though, because my teachers asked me to, and I liked those teachers. That's the way they did it... tap the top students on the shoulder, and ask them if they want to participate. The teachers know who those students are already. They don't need to see them in a math club first.

My schools picked Pentathlon teams the same way. I did it once, and it was even worse than a math competition, because it was testing ALL DAY. I refused further invitations until 9th grade, when we piloted the Quiz Bowl format. THAT was a lot of fun.


Okay, I'll bite. Apart from the same benefits one might attain from after-schooling in math (and if you're already such a stellar math student, what are you really gaining?), what are these benefits, and how are they different from those gained in any other extracurricular activity? Because you can win awards, pad a college application, and qualify for scholarships with any one of the other activities I already mentioned. In addition, most college admissions officers prefer well-rounded applicants.

IMO, it is hard, but worthwhile to examine the causes of "self selection" and make changes to be more inclusive. If a specialty club attracts members that do not represent the demographics of the school, the adults need (IMO) be vigilant to make sure that this is not the result of problems in the club's organization, goals, interpersonal interactions, or some other factor not related to the specialty interest. Example: Here in my area almost all chess tournaments for elementary students are on Saturday. There are some rated quads on Friday nights, but that is all. This makes chess less appealing to families that have religious, educational, or cultural obligations on Saturday. These families children may attend the Thanksgiving tournament or some chess camps, but they will not be able to become truly competitive in tournaments. Adults helping to run the school chess club may only see that they have a "self selecting" membership that is very interested in tournament play and is free on Saturdays, but they could choose to stop and examine the reasons behind the selection. What is the focus of chess club? Will more students join chess club if the focus of the club is tournaments or by having a broader focus? Are there hidden costs to joining chess club (travel, entry fees, etc). Do students lack transportation to club activities because both parents work and may work on weekends? Are the club meetings held at a time that students that take the school bus can attend?

All of these factors mentioned above help to determine the "self selecting" population of the club or activity in ways that are clear and easy to discern.

This type of analysis seems more difficult when we start talking about gender (IMO), because adults may not know why girls and boys perceive themselves as unwelcome or "not a good fit" for a club. It may be simple and hard to solve: it seems to the child that "everyone else's dad works at [local high tech firm] and they can help. My dad doesn't" or "I don't have money for private music lessons and everyone else in jazz band takes them so…" It may be complex and hard to solve: All of the boys in math club talk over each other when trying to be the first to answer a question; the girls just go away rather than struggle with making their view heard. It may be something that I, as an adult, don't acknowledge is a real and substantial issue when you are young: there is only one student bathroom at the chess camp and girls have to share with boys; or there are no other girls at all.

Not sure what the solutions are. As parents, others have given good suggestions above, but I think the institutions need more sensitivity too.

After school is actually quite tricky re who can and can't attend. To attend after school, you usually (most schools) have to have alternate transportation home after the club ends. If you're participating in a school team sport, those practices (here) often take place *every* day after school. If you have other types of lessons or siblings and a crazy family schedule, your parents might not be able to fit in one more after-school-day-per-week activity. If you are attending a before school activity, you simply might be tired by the end of the day.

It's not possible to find a time and method of selection that will work for everyone, and it's not easy to find a best-fit for things like this. OTOH, it's very easy to look in from the outside and say "Oh, only rottweilers who wear purple head bands are attending this activity, therefore they must be the best candidates."... without taking into account that it's quite likely that there is some other selection factor influencing who attends that may, in fact, be entirely unrelated to who is naturally a best fit for a competition or who is naturally most interested in the subject.

polarbear

ps - I'll offer up one situation that happened in my family. One of my dds was very interested in joining our school's chess club, so she went to the first meeting and stuck it out for another 1 or 2 meetings after school. She quit - not because the chess was difficult (she was, in fact, having a lot of fun with the chess) - she quit because she had a difficult time with the approach of the teacher sponsoring the club, and also because there were quite a few students in the club she didn't really feel like hanging out with. I don't think the quitting due to not enjoying the sponsor fit or not feeling like hanging out with the other kids is exclusive to a "girl's" personality either - same thing has happened with my ds and other boys I know.