|
0 members (),
482
guests, and
10
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2 |
Being a hired employee in a great-paying job - which I am - is actually the hallmark of the middle class. You can argue about what strata of the middle class you are in. Lower, Upper, Really Upper. I've-got-three-commas-because-I-was-employee-235-at-Google Upper. Whatever. You're still a hired hand, and you are middle class. I disagree strongly. There comes a point in the life of a few lucky people when they choose to work because they want to, not because they have to. Employees with all those commas fit that description perfectly. If they stay at their jobs, it's not because they need that paycheck to pay the mortgage next month. It's because working is more fun than not working at the moment. They might decide next month to try their hands at [insert self-funded project name], or they might not. This freedom makes them very much NOT in the middle class. Looking like something doesn't make it so.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 381
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 381 |
So you're saying that the building isn't on fire?  Ah. Hmmm. I guess you did make the point a little bit more succinctly. I wrote more words though! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,513 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,513 Likes: 1 |
Bless you, suevv! I have a funny anecdote that you'll like. I'll only add a summary of the single best response I ever saw about the ego associated with "elite schools." Kurt Vonnegut was giving a talk at Stanford and did a Q&A after. An oh-so-smug Stanford student got up and opened with a smarmy, wink-wink, aren't we special attitude. Vonnegut's response was short and stunning. Here - roughly - is the transcript:
Student: Mr. Vonnegut, thank you for being here tonight. You've given us all a lot to think about.
V: You're welcome.
Student (smirking): I'd like to think of myself as well above average, ...
V (cutting in): You're not.
Student stammered unintelligibly for a minute about the middle class and education. Then sat down.
I think about this exchange often. It's hard for me to explain why I found it so satisfying. I think because V's point was that, even if you put fancy dressing on your resume, even if you go to the right places and all that, you're not that different from your fellow humans. You're not that different from the laborer or waitress or whatever job you think of as below you (or your child).
I guess it goes back to the point above about wishing people would give up on more, MORE, MOST!!! as their goal in life. That's not what it's about.
I will never let DS weigh "prestige" in his choice of college. Never. My sister-in-law, whose boyfriend is doing a postdoc at Harvard, bought Harvard sweatshirts for her sister and father, who never attended the school. FIL wears his shirt around everywhere, and the receiving SIL (who is currently a student at our local--and good-- university) wears her Harvard shirt on campus. My in-laws are the kind of insecure people for whom titles are everything, and they spend family gatherings impressing themselves with talk about their credentials. I find it pathetic, though it can make for some fun sport. (Bad aquinas!) Case in point below: When DH saw his sister and Dad in the shirts, he asked wryly, "Oh, did you buy that because I applied to Harvard?"
What is to give light must endure burning.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 381
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 381 |
When DH saw his sister and Dad in the shirts, he asked wryly, "Oh, did you buy that because I applied to Harvard?" Chuckle. chuckle. giggle. laugh out oud. I like that DH of yours, I do.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,513 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,513 Likes: 1 |
When DH saw his sister and Dad in the shirts, he asked wryly, "Oh, did you buy that because I applied to Harvard?" Chuckle. chuckle. giggle. laugh out oud. I like that DH of yours, I do. That makes two of us.
What is to give light must endure burning.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,640 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,640 Likes: 2 |
Being a hired employee in a great-paying job - which I am - is actually the hallmark of the middle class. You can argue about what strata of the middle class you are in. Lower, Upper, Really Upper. I've-got-three-commas-because-I-was-employee-235-at-Google Upper. Whatever. You're still a hired hand, and you are middle class. I disagree strongly. There comes a point in the life of a few lucky people when they choose to work because they want to, not because they have to. Employees with all those commas fit that description perfectly. If they stay at their jobs, it's not because they need that paycheck to pay the mortgage next month. It's because working is more fun than not working at the moment. They might decide next month to try their hands at [insert self-funded project name], or they might not. This freedom makes them very much NOT in the middle class. Looking like something doesn't make it so. The Wikipedia article on "middle class" says this: The size of the middle class depends on how it is defined, whether by education, wealth, environment of upbringing, social network, manners or values, etc. These are all related, but are far from deterministically dependent. The following factors are often ascribed in modern usage to a "middle class":[by whom?]
Achievement of tertiary education.
Holding professional qualifications, including academics, lawyers, chartered engineers, politicians, and doctors, regardless of leisure or wealth.
Belief in bourgeois values, such as high rates of house ownership, delayed gratification, and jobs which are perceived to be secure.
Lifestyle. In the United Kingdom, social status has historically been linked less directly to wealth than in the United States,[4] and has also been judged by signifiers such as accent, manners, place of education, occupation, and the class of a person's family, circle of friends and acquaintances.[5][6]
Cultural identification. Often in the United States, the middle class are the most eager participants in pop culture whereas the reverse is true in Britain.[7] The second generation of new immigrants will often enthusiastically forsake their traditional folk culture as a sign of having arrived in the middle class. If you accept this description, one can have a high income but still be middle class. An important respect in which many upper income people are middle class is that they expect their children to have independent careers rather than just living off of inherited wealth or managing a family business.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181 |
I think that fundamentally precludes awesomeness of the sort defined by Jonlaw, however. So being middle-class means NOT being awesome. This seems terribly unfair to Senators and the Cabinet members, I must say-- all of that only to be "middle class." It seems so nastily-- Bourgeois somehow. You'd think that going to the right school for that kind of career would come with better awesomeness. And glory. Definitely seems like there should be more glory associated than merely being "middle class." I'll be sure to let my electrician know that he's not middle class next time he's out. Right after I ask him how his dad is liking working for him these days. I'm sure that he will find it amusing that the Obamas are "middle class" and he-- isn't. 
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 282
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 282 |
Coming into this late, but I made the same decision as the OP's daughter when I went to undergrad. I had the choice between a better than full ride scholarship at State U, or having my parents go severely into debt if I joined CalTech. I chose State U.
The education I received there was excellent. I was in the Honors program, and my peers there were every bit as strong as my MIT classmates in grad school. No surprise because most of my honors school classmates ended up at Columbia, MIT, Stanford, etc. for grad school.
The downsides are real though. I took some time between undergrad and grad, and the job opportunities before and after MIT were vastly different.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,260 Likes: 8
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,260 Likes: 8 |
Another vote for being proud of those who value completing college without incurring burdensome debt.  While some may place a higher value on the name of an "elite" college, other interviewers have clearly valued individuals who demonstrated having a realistic eye on the "bottom line" by managing their own budgets and personal finances in a cost-effective manner... similar to the manner in which the company strives to manage it's own Profit/Loss. This brings to mind a post on a recent thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,007
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,007 |
Being a hired employee in a great-paying job - which I am - is actually the hallmark of the middle class. You can argue about what strata of the middle class you are in. Lower, Upper, Really Upper. I've-got-three-commas-because-I-was-employee-235-at-Google Upper. Whatever. You're still a hired hand, and you are middle class. I disagree strongly. There comes a point in the life of a few lucky people when they choose to work because they want to, not because they have to. Employees with all those commas fit that description perfectly. If they stay at their jobs, it's not because they need that paycheck to pay the mortgage next month. It's because working is more fun than not working at the moment. They might decide next month to try their hands at [insert self-funded project name], or they might not. This freedom makes them very much NOT in the middle class. Looking like something doesn't make it so. You forgot about college expenses and retirement. By your definition, I left the middle class about 10 years ago. However, I still have to pay for...college, which has nothing to do with day to day living expenses and costs as much as a house.
|
|
|
|
|
