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    Joined: Aug 2010
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    I'm sure there are many who just hang around meeting low expectations. Which is why I understand the push for higher expectations all around. Where I part company with the reformists is what "all around" means. I do not believe that the expectations should be the same for everyone, nor do I believe as we were told at a common core meeting-- that before cc, only gifted classes had high expectations. Now everyone will. Special ed will be held to the same high expectations. No exceptions (on diploma track). I think we should raise the expectations of LEARNING (not of work output) for EVERYONE, including above average kids.

    Seeems reasonable to me, yeah. I think there is much to be thought about here.

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    My 2E who scored the highest in his grade on the SAT10 was in remedial classes and it was a year and a half long fight, complete with outside testing, to get him out, and get accommodations that allowed him to excel in the grade level and above classes.

    This is what I mean. Many parents will not do this, don't know they should do this, or are not capable of doing this. Class plays a part here. Many people have been brought up not to question the authority of teachers and the school system.


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    22B, someone or someones must have complained to the moderator. When you are in someone else's house (or forum), you have to play by their rules. Davidson reserves the right to edit or delete any of your posts. I did not read your deleted post but I do sympathize as I opposed censorship and I have been the subject of complaints on this forum as well. I had one post "edited" and one post deleted on different threads. I am okay with being deleted but I found being edited creepy as it changes the point/emphasis of the original post. Thankfully, I received an email so I was able to delete the edited post. Consider yourself lucky that you were deleted rather than edited. Also do not feel bad as there is no rhyme or reason as to who gets censored. I have seen truly offensive posts remain while some simply unpopular posts deleted/edited. Again, when you are in someone else's house . . .

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
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    I have also been stunned that anyone could actually believe that simply dropping students into coursework that they are ill-suited to, and even less well-prepared for is somehow an... opportunity for those students. ???

    Sometimes people and children do rise to a higher level based on what is expected of them or how they are treated. Not always, obviously.

    And here's the thing. There seems to be an unexamined belief that tracking and grouping will be done correctly. Come on now. I've seen plenty of people posting here saying their GT child has been inappropriately placed for reading or math. If this happens to our kids, what happens to less obvious kids? What happens to kids whose parents lack the time, privilege, or willingness to fight? How many people here had their children retested or tested for 2E because the system somehow did not place them where they thought they should land?

    Do we really believe all those "low" and "middle" kids are appropriately placed?

    For that matter, I'm not sure about permanent "gifted" placement either.

    Let me just say once more that I am not some huge detracking advocate. I feel pretty unsure about AP for all, etc. But I also see why it is proposed. I think there has got to be a better way than either of these systems.

    ITA, ultramarina. That is really the source of discomfiture for me. I know that I benefited from a decently implemented tracking system and my kids as well. However, I also see the damage to those who are misplaced or placed into the lower classes as low expectations can be truly compounding.

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    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    22B, someone or someones must have complained to the moderator. When you are in someone else's house (or forum), you have to play by their rules. Davidson reserves the right to edit or delete any of your posts. I did not read your deleted post but I do sympathize as I opposed censorship and I have been the subject of complaints on this forum as well. I had one post "edited" and one post deleted on different threads. I am okay with being deleted but I found being edited creepy as it changes the point/emphasis of the original post. Thankfully, I received an email so I was able to delete the edited post. Consider yourself lucky that you were deleted rather than edited. Also do not feel bad as there is no rhyme or reason as to who gets censored. I have seen truly offensive posts remain while some simply unpopular posts deleted/edited. Again, when you are in someone else's house . . .

    What rules??! We can have absolutely no idea what the criteria are so that we can self-censor. Everyone has to second guess what words and topics are allowed. This has a chilling effect on any dialog.

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    Originally Posted by Val
    I would like to add that in a public forum, people will express opinions that some people may not agree with or like. I don't think that we need to "tell on" these people and request censorship of unpopular opinions because some of us don't like them. I don't agree with a lot of opinions here, but I deal with them by refuting them with facts, not suppressing them. IMO, this approach enriches the debate. Squelching debate doesn't.

    The problems with our education system are multi-factorial, as are the problems that a lot of students face. Politically motivated decision-making has a negative effect on all students, and stating the facts of how decisions are made is not, in my opinion, racist or worthy of being suppressed. Sometimes we have to face discomfiting facts in order to solve complex problems.


    I strongly agree with this.

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    On the flip side of this coin.

    There is a girl that went to elementary school with my ds11 when he was in public school. We picked her up several times to go to math competitions with my ds. She is now in 6th at the middle school. The course descriptions are weird there—The other day I saw her and asked how school was going. They (the school) placed her in 8th grade math and her parents had no idea.

    How do you have no idea? These are not poor people or disadvantaged in any way.

    I am quite sure this was all due to tracking. MAPs and such..
    Just food for thought.

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    At the top of the page, near the center, you are invited to click for the Board Rules.

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    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Quote
    I have also been stunned that anyone could actually believe that simply dropping students into coursework that they are ill-suited to, and even less well-prepared for is somehow an... opportunity for those students. ???

    Sometimes people and children do rise to a higher level based on what is expected of them or how they are treated. Not always, obviously.

    And here's the thing. There seems to be an unexamined belief that tracking and grouping will be done correctly. Come on now. I've seen plenty of people posting here saying their GT child has been inappropriately placed for reading or math. If this happens to our kids, what happens to less obvious kids? What happens to kids whose parents lack the time, privilege, or willingness to fight? How many people here had their children retested or tested for 2E because the system somehow did not place them where they thought they should land?

    Do we really believe all those "low" and "middle" kids are appropriately placed?

    For that matter, I'm not sure about permanent "gifted" placement either.

    Let me just say once more that I am not some huge detracking advocate. I feel pretty unsure about AP for all, etc. But I also see why it is proposed. I think there has got to be a better way than either of these systems.

    ITA, ultramarina. That is really the source of discomfiture for me. I know that I benefited from a decently implemented tracking system and my kids as well. However, I also see the damage to those who are misplaced or placed into the lower classes as low expectations can be truly compounding.



    ITA, too-- surprisingly, I know. But this then becomes a matter of baby and bathwater, to use the idiomatic turn of phrase. Eliminating tracking sounds fine-- but unless you replace it with something that is genuinely better at getting students (preferably MORE students) into positions aligned with their zones of proximal development, it's arguable to state that one might actually have been better to just keep tracking, as flawed as it is.

    The difference seems to be whether one prefers meeting a FEW kids' needs outside of the central third of the distribution, or almost NOBODY's if they fall outside of that central third. Why punish those people whose needs are met through tracking by eliminating it so that everyone gets the same inadequate educational setting?? shocked

    It's the false dichotomy of that which I find so objectionable. And stupid. I find it stupid. frown




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    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    At the top of the page, near the center, you are invited to click for the Board Rules.

    What's happened is not the application of any rules. All there is is this "we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever". But if this is too arbitrary and capricious, the effect on dialog is too chilling.

    What's really happening is that some users(s) is/are trolling/bullying me, and they have recruited a moderator for that prupose.

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    Hello Everyone,

    Do to 22B's in ability to let things go and keep this thread on subject, they have been banned. I ask that everyone else please return to the threads original topic of "More inclusive 'GT' classes in middle/high schools".

    The Davidson Institute did not create moderators to be mean, but instead to provide a safe and friendly environment so that everyone in the gifted education community can seek and provide support.

    Thank you to those of you who have kept everything on topic and continue to support gifted education.

    Lewis

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