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    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...itys-gifted-classrooms-useful-or-harmful
    Segregation by Ability
    New York Times
    June 3, 2014
    Quote
    New York City’s schools chancellor, Carmen Fariña, who as a principal eliminated her school’s gifted classrooms, created a bit of stir recently by downplaying the importance of the city’s “gifted and talented” programs. Earlier this year, she said she would like to see neighborhood schools “provide gifted practices to all students.”

    Should public schools offer these programs?
    The home page of the NYT uses a neutral title, which I used for this thread. The title on the debate page, "Segregation by Ability", is loaded. Previews of the four debate entries are as follows.

    Eliminate Gifted Tracks
    By HALLEY POTTER, THE CENTURY FOUNDATION AND DAVID TIPSON, NEW YORK APPLESEED
    New York City should adopt a schoolwide approach to gifted education, providing all students with appropriate academic challenges in classrooms that reflect the full diversity of each school.

    America’s Future Depends on Gifted Students
    By FREDERICK M. HESS, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE
    Anyone who has watched a teacher labor to “differentiate” instruction in a classroom that encompasses both math prodigies and English language learners knows it’s unreasonable to expect most teachers to do this well.

    We Need Quality Education for All Students
    By DARRICK HAMILTON, ECONOMIST
    There is nothing magical or inherently good or bad about exposing black children to white children. What is critical is exposing every child to a high quality curriculum.

    Tracking Students By Ability Produces Results
    By BRUCE SACERDOTE, ECONOMIST
    Eliminating all gifted and talented programs or specialized high schools could have serious consequences for bright but not wealthy students in New York City.

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    NYC is an interesting place to have this debate, since the culture of the place lends itself to widespread practice of parental behaviors which cause significant harm to both gifted children and those who are being pushed to look like them. The car line could be renamed to "heliport."

    It's easy to be paranoid about your child's future in a very crowded place with gross riches and abject poverty right next to each other, and most of the grey area in between shoved out into the exurbs.

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    Haven't really read the article yet. But given the crazy way elementary schools are selected in Manhattan, making it a competition to just get into the "right" kindergarten has got to exasperated this.

    I wonder if many of the NYC gifted classes are like the ones in my district. A combination of "gifted" and highly motivated kids. Problem is not all gifted kids are highly motivated and not all teachers in this program take that into account. My son spend 3 years with more homework than his sister did in H.S. for the privilege of getting to work closer to his level.

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    Earlier this year, she said she would like to see neighborhood schools “provide gifted practices to all students.”


    Well, research supports that.

    I have no idea why such a statement could possibly be seen as "controversial" in any way, quite honestly.

    Beyond that, I agree with Dude's assessment of this-- NYT and NY itself are likely to be not exactly representative in a host of ways.

    Well, maybe this microcosm of education is more of what the rest of us see in flashes or particular zip codes-- possible, that.

    This kind of debate is a regular thing around here, as well-- though we seem to always wind up on the egalitarian "gifted for ALL the kids, nothing 'special' for those who already 'have' so much..." side of things.

    Parents here just want the label.

    My cynical solution to this is that we should hand out gold stars and bumper stickers to all of the parents wanting them, and call actual gifted education something less socially desirable. smirk



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    There was an interesting article today on the NY times with various viewpoints in whether tracking is helpful or harmful.

    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...itys-gifted-classrooms-useful-or-harmful

    The most interesting part for me at least were the links to the changes in Rockville NY where they've apparently eliminated all tracking all the way through HS. The overall proficiency rates and participation in subjects like AP Calculus have risen fairly dramatically. I'm very curious if they're meeting the needs of advanced learners.







    Last edited by Ben leis; 06/04/14 12:43 PM.
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    If we are talking about Manhattan consider the screening that has already occurred in order for you to be working at a high level in NYC, so if you raised your gifted child there, then chances are you have plenty of gifted families around who are going through the same experiences.

    Gifted grouping is necessary because:
    -regular classes are too easy,
    -the required school hours take up so much of the childhood daytime, the regular classes may waste the gifted child's time,
    -the gifted people will eventually work together, somehow, someway and it would be great to learn if it is possible to foster any consensus ever among geniuses,
    -gifted children, especially boys, intentionally check out when they are totally bored (the school cannot possibly even know their ability in person (just on the standardized tests) because they are not showing it when they are bored),
    -if you are not engaging and educating the smartest kids, is it really a school? an education?,
    -seeing the people at the top of the average range get straight As sets those poor children up for a huge shock. Think: You know when the college professor states clearly, " I am only teaching to the top 5% of this classroom." or "Only 1 out of every 3 of you will be here next semester / next year." or fill in your own quote. Those professors are letting you know that they know that somehow admissions let in X amount, but the school knows from historical data that only Y amount of those admitted actually have the chops to do that work at that level consistently. Think: How many levels of screening did you go through (whether you realized it or not) to be included in that group that is sitting in that room with you.
    Those are my only comments for now. Hope it helps.

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    HowlerKarma - you are cracking me up! I often wish it was called something less desirable. "Talented and Gifted" sounds too enticing!

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    Originally Posted by LRS
    HowlerKarma - you are cracking me up! I often wish it was called something less desirable. "Talented and Gifted" sounds too enticing!


    Totally agree! Who wouldn't want their child to qualify for being gifted or talented?!

    We have been using "advanced learner" or "high academic ability" to describe DS and that seems to ruffle fewer feathers (while also being quite accurate).

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    Originally Posted by Wesupportgifted
    If we are talking about Manhattan consider the screening that has already occurred in order for you to be working at a high level in NYC, so if you raised your gifted child there, then chances are you have plenty of gifted families around who are going through the same experiences.

    That's screening for SES, not ability.

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    Last edited by stemfun; 09/21/18 07:30 AM.
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