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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Average credit card debt: $15,270
Average mortgage debt: $149,925
Average student loan debt: $32,258
If that's not people getting things they can't yet afford I don't know how else I can possibly convince you. I agree about the student loan debt; I think that part of the point of this thread addresses that question. (CC debt is OT, but, average debt is driven up by a small number of people who have very high debt; I'd like to see the median and the SD (if the distribution is normal? Dunno.). More importantly, a large chunk of credit card debt is medical bills and other basic expenses like rent and food. For example, this story in the NY Times breaks it down. The idea that CC debt is exclusively (or even mostly) about buying luxury goods is a myth.) I don't think that yoking students to large debt is healthy for the nation as a whole. IMO, the easy availability of credit is an important factor driving up college costs (they raise tuition because the loans will just poof the money into existence and the loan won't even go away if the student dies). At the same time, tightening the requirements for getting a loan is also bad, because the poor and lower middle class students will be shut out. IMO, the solution is to cut the costs and make college affordable to people who work a summer job and maybe a part-time job during term (though I'd prefer that everyone could study without working more than ~10 hours per week so that they can focus on, you know, studying.). You know, like things mostly were in the 80s or so and earlier.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181
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I'm not in the U.S. so I have little knowledge of your system admissions requirements. Since there have been a number of references to raising admission standards I'm curious, what are the requirements for a mid level college? (I'm not talking Ivy League or Community College but say something where you could get an Engineering degree with a decent chance of getting a job in an average economy as an example) This is a question which is easily answered in looking at College Board's college listings-- while this doesn't address what MINIMUMS are for that type of school, you can certainly take a look at what averages are for matriculating students. https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-searchA lot of state flagships will admit mostly students who have SAT's well under 500 (Math and/or Reading), and don't even LOOK at what writing scores are. ________________________________________________ Old Dad, many of us have indicated that "completely free" probably isn't good, either. I happen to be in that particular camp myself. Surprising, I know, given how moderate-to-liberal most of my framework and worldview tends to be. I just think that human beings don't value what they don't have to pay for personally (in some way-- could be monetary, could be service). _________________________________________________ Jon, that's what I fear, myself-- that the quality issues within the entire system have gone so far over the edge that there isn't an obvious way to recover, but I don't really see anything else emerging to truly replace it yet, either.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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I don't think tax money should be used to make college entirely free for students or their families. OTOH, each of my children currently have six-figure 529 college savings plans not because they "earned" them but because they have affluent parents who have chosen to fund those accounts. I'm hard pressed to see a benefit in a 529 account.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181
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I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?" Are we certain that's *not* the basic mission of the institution these days? Many people seem to have decided that the "college experience" is the goal. Truth. "Education" is secondary now to the actual mission of many students AND institutions. And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation?? Of course, what I really wish is that rock-climbing facilities, campus dining sushi bars, and the like were something that I could choose to NOT partake of, whilst still obtaining the educational portion of the mission. THAT seems to be a problem these days.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Old Dad, many of us have indicated that "completely free" probably isn't good, either. I happen to be in that particular camp myself. Surprising, I know, given how moderate-to-liberal most of my framework and worldview tends to be. I just think that human beings don't value what they don't have to pay for personally (in some way-- could be monetary, could be service). College is a hoop to jump through at this point to establish that you are employable. So, there's no reason to not make it free when it's currently functioning as high school.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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I find it rather interesting that we're willing to discuss how education should be distributed based on education type, ability of a person to complete specific classes, and any other number of criteria, however, the criteria of, "Did someone earn the right by paying for it?" is so readily dismissed. I don't think tax money should be used to make college entirely free for students or their families. OTOH, each of my children currently have six-figure 529 college savings plans not because they "earned" them but because they have affluent parents who have chosen to fund those accounts. You don't want to make college tuition so steeply progressive and need-based that it becomes pointless for parents to save and for 2nd earners of couples to work. But it should also be possible for qualified students from poor families to attend college, partly through loans. The question is how to strike the right balance between those objectives. Really excellent post. 
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation?? Except that the millions of years of stored sunlight that we are burning at a rapid clip is currently paying for it. So nobody's paying for much of anything at the moment. Yeah, someone has to go get it and move it, but that doesn't take much effort, relatively speaking.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2
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And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation??
Of course, what I really wish is that rock-climbing facilities, campus dining sushi bars, and the like were something that I could choose to NOT partake of, whilst still obtaining the educational portion of the mission. I agree, but would prefer that these things were simply not there. They're a distraction, both for the students and the university. Well-equipped athletic facilities are very important. A multi-million dollar horsey barn or a new stadium, not so much. The fifteenth new giant research building in as many years, not so much. I know that last one must sound odd coming from a scientist, but IMO, we're shoving too many people into research and forcing them to submit too many applications for grants that almost certainly won't get funded (too many applicants), and spending a fortune in the process. All while not doing research (because those hapless researchers are spending so much time writing grant applications). This problem, I suspect, is what Wren was referring to when she was saying that the US is falling behind. She was right, but for the wrong reasons. It's not because we don't spend money. It's because we spend it on the wrong things.
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 272
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Hello everyone - please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks/calling people out. I would rather not lock this thread unless I have to. Per the board rules:
Be polite. When you write a message, please treat other people the way you would like to be treated. We welcome comments that contribute to a discussion in a meaningful and/or thought-provoking way. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with something, please ensure that your comment adheres to the guidelines. Personal attacks are not allowed, nor are messages that threaten, are profane, are degrading or are obscene.
Stick to the topic. If you want to make a comment that will substantially change the direction of a thread, please start a new thread. You may write a comment in the old thread noting that you are starting a new one with a link. Do not �hijack� a thread.
Do not bully or insult. In any discussion, people may disagree with your opinions. This is a normal part of any discussion. If you do not agree with someone, feel free to post a thoughtful, constructive response, but do not bully or insult people.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,640 Likes: 2
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Who should attend college and what they should study depend on what the purpose of going to college should be, which is the subject of this interesting essay. How many 18-year-olds want "an opportunity to experience an intellectual awakening"? http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...ge-is-the-key-to-social-mobility/283120/The Danger of Telling Poor Kids That College Is the Key to Social Mobility Higher education should be promoted to all students as an opportunity to experience an intellectual awakening, not just increase their earning power. ANDREW SIMMONS The Atlantic January 16, 2014
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