Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Free tuition at US public Universities?

As clarification, I separate government (taxpayer) services as opposed to personal responsibility based on whether it's a personal service / benefit or a commonly used service.

The military commonly serves all citizens, all citizens with valid license can freely use roads. It has been determined that a K-12 education is publically available to all citizens and part of which is even required by law, as opposed to medical attention which is a personal good and service (and should remain unsubsidized IMO) a college education (which many, if not a majority of citizens, are not even capable of completing)

We've become a country big on rights and expectations from others and low on personal responsibility and expectations of ourselves, which breeds the next generation of those low on personal responsibility and expectations of self......but that's okay, we can just point the finger at the taxpayer and cry "unfair" and expect them to make up for it.

Our babysitter this year got a completely tuition-free ride to the University of California, Santa Cruz, one of our state schools. Her dad is a teacher and makes under whatever their limit is, so she has free tuition. She has to pay room and board. She got so homesick though that she is transferring to our local community college.

Adding to the debate between Val and Dad22, why not provide debt forgiveness if you get a degree that has long term benefits to the economy and gives back, like civil engineering or biotech.

If you get an A average on graduation from engineering, you get 100% student debt forgiveness, B is 80%. If you take a liberal arts degree, you keep your debt. Like we need police, but we don't necessarily need public decorations at holiday time. The latter is nice but is a cost for prettiness not safety. Treat degree outcomes instead of upfront tuition benefits.

Why wouldn't this work? Then we get people trained for things we need, not just are pretty.

There is a lot of merit to your thought patterns there, however, you're likely to get the argument that the arts are just as much "needed" as anything else. We're a society that has great difficulty understanding the difference between want and need.

What I see as the primary problem with this is that grade-grubbing is ALREADY really horrible in post-secondary. Students won't WORK harder, but they'll surely whine a lot harder. LOL. It'll also simply increase pressure on STEM departments/colleges and push people who are actually mediocre or worse to stick with majors they are completely unsuited for.

Oregon is actually toying with an idea which amounts to the same thing (in terms of the repayment/intent)--
Oregon plan for tuition-free "pay it forward" higher education

but even this is not without its critics:

College tuition plan punishes graduate success (which I have to say, I find more than a bit ridiculous, since its an investment by definition on both sides, and the taxpayers are certainly going to "lose" at least as often as they "win" and without the 'free' college, then a lot of those successful graduates won't go to college to begin with, or will be so larded up with debt that they NEVER contribute meaningfully to the consumer economy... and really, nobody is claiming that those wealthy enough to do so cannot just-- go to an elite college out of state. Whatever, you know?)

I think this is a reasonably cogent view of this kind of plan:

Why free college isn't enough, though I ultimately disagree with his perspective that "college is a universal good." I see it as a hybrid benefitting BOTH society at large (and its economy) and the individual. If it WERE completely individual, then our current system would make complete sense. On the other hand, complete subsidization would make sense if it weren't. I also think that the author makes a hash of it by ignoring the fact that STEM graduates cost more to educate than liberal arts ones. That is simply the case. You can't teach a senior lab in optics without equipment-- expensive equipment. You can on the other hand, teach a senior course in literature with little more than a classroom space and standard access to infrastructure.



STEM students are actually considerably more expensive to train in the first place, so it makes sense to me that their "cost" is higher to the taxpayer, but their repayment rate is ALSO higher. That actually seems completely fair.

As a scientist with a degree in history and who took a lot of other classes in the humanities (plus a reasonable knowledge of IT), I find this sort of thinking beyond depressing.

Knowing how to write some code or answer all the questions on a multiple choice test doesn't make someone educated --- it makes him trained. Sadly enough, I suspect that lack of serious exposure to the great ideas in the humanities feeds the idea that they're just "pretty" and without real value (in other words, the arrogance of ignorance). By "serious exposure", I mean talking about these ideas with other people and writing papers which are then critiqued and often rewritten, not simply reading a book or watching a set of videos or taking a gen ed course. Back in the dark ages before 1990 or so, American K-12 schools taught this stuff and the general population at least got some exposure to the Bronte sisters, John Locke, and so on. These days, we ask our kids to read an excerpt, choose the best answer, and move on.

When we disparage serious exploration of the humanities, we do our society a serious disservice because as a group, we start to ignore important ideas --- including important mistakes --- that have gone before. This ignorance damages a society's ability to reason and question the claims of others, and IMO, it's contributing to our problems today.

Civilizations are built on ideas as well as technology. IMO, too much focus on technology without a solid understanding of who we are and where we came from is a recipe for problems. Bell Labs used to send its leaders off to courses on philosophy/the humanities for precisely this reason.

But if you don't believe me (or Bell Labs), read this. It was written by someone who has been stamped with a Seal of Approval in Something that Matters (business).

Honestly, it's even more depressing to see this kind of shallow thinking on a forum like this one. :-P

It wasn't an argument that art isn't good to have, but you have to roof and provide food first to your children.

And too many go into the arts because you can get a degree in it and then you can't get a job in it. If less went into them, the truly dedicated would and then there would probably be more scholarship money for the truly talented.

What this whole argument was about, was weeding out the ones that really don't need a college education since they were a drain on the country and they should be redirected to vocational training. Hence my solution, which I think works. You want a liberal arts degree and then try and get a job selling in Costco, pay the tuition. If you get a degree in computer science and keep a job here instead of bringing in someone from India or China, then your tuition gets repaid.

Anyone know how many people get a degree in English literature and then not do anything with it afterwards, not teach, not write, not edit? My pure guess is at least 80%. I bet it is in single digits for engineering.

Wren, I have bad news for you. People who write code have no control over outsourcing.


And you clearly missed the entire point of what I was saying.

Multiple choice test.

Which groups should get a college education.
You must choose exactly two options.
[ ] smart rich kids
[ ] dumb rich kids
[ ] smart poor kids
[ ] dumb poor kids

Oo--this is a much more finely crafted question than any I've seen in a long time, by the way.

I think that I know the answer. Well, I know MY answer, anyway.

Now, for the follow up--

which two group are getting college educations currently, and which two are projected to continue doing so as college costs rise?



Thought so.

Maybe we should restrict English majors to only SOME college students.


Please select acceptable college majors for each of the above groups.