Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Wechsler subtest ceilings

I would ask DYS directly because I suspect that they may accept the WASI FSIQ because it is calculated from the same four subtests as the GAI on WISC-IV, although the GAI usually includes two additional subtests. Unless everything has completely changed, the four subtests used in WASI are Matrix Reasoning, Block Design, Similarities and Vocabulary, which are the subtests to calculate the PRI and VCI indices. My oldest DS took the WASI once and the WISC-IV many times and that is what the testers told me. It is possible that I could be wrong if they completely changed the WASI in the last few years but I have not heard this.

If DYS won't accept the WASI FSIQ as equivalent to WISC GAI, then I personally would probably not choose the MAP scores as one of the portfolio items because while the scores are certainly high, they may not be DYS high (if that makes sense).

This is on the Davidson website:

"The Davidson Institute’s Qualification Criteria was developed by experts in the gifted field to provide us with a consistent and accurate gauge of a child’s cognitive abilities. IQ tests (such as the RIAS, CoGAT, WASI or SB-LM) and achievement tests (such as the MAP, SCAT, ITBS, STAR, and Stanford Achievement Test) will not be considered for qualification. However, these tests may be submitted in addition to those listed in our specific qualification criteria to further demonstrate precocity, but will not take the place of the required testing. There are no exceptions. Please note: Test reports must be uploaded in the Online Application System as PDF files."

So they're open to receiving these tests along with the required criteria.

I think the Explore is a great idea. It was after my son got qualifying scores on the Explore that we went ahead and got the WISC to get him into DYS. But we only had old CoGat scores at that point. Since you have other testing, you might also go the portfolio route if she has qualifying Explore scores. It would be less expensive.

Quantum2003, I believe the subtests are still just as you described and this was my thinking as well. I may just need to contact them.

Thanks for the advice on the MAP testing - see? What do I know? I thought the Reading scores might be helpful (but maybe not! I know her math is less impressive, and to be fair, she has lacked acceleration). Thanks!

I don't have enough details to know for certain about the ceilings, but I've run across literature suggesting scores over 145 often indicate hitting a ceiling or two, but this, again, new to me.

KADmom, thanks - it appears that she has actually recently taken the many of achievement tests listed that DON'T count, as well as the "group IQ" test (almost all with 99 or >99 percentile results). I am now wondering, though, whether DD's scores on these are enough to prove anything helpful for DYS. This is probably why she needs the out of level testing. I am now also wondering if a WJ Ach. Broad Reading Test might be a better demonstration of her abilities, though...hmmmm...see the slippery slope with even thinking about more tests? Oh boy....

Again, thank you all!

Loy58, please don't assume that my opinion regarding the MAP scores is more valid than your own. Your DD's MAP reading score may actually be DYS level but it is not obvious to me - that's all.

My reasoning stems from my minimalist bias and the idea that it is better to present the strongest evidence and not clutter your portfolio with items that may dilute its strength. If DYS won't accept the WASI as IQ so that you have to do a portfolio, then you may want to focus on adding documentation that are more IQ-ish then achievement-ish. In that case, the WASI scores will be far more relevant and a top choice for the portfolio. Measures like Cogat or CTY SCAT are also partly IQ-ish and would be a better choice than MAP. My other thought was that the MAP Math score definitely did not look DYS level to me and it's on the same report as the MAP reading. If you get the sense that the MAP Reading is higher than the other test scores that you have, then by all means include that in your portfolio.

I really don't want to steer you wrong - my opinion is just one among many and I am no more qualified than anyone one else to guess what would appeal to Davidson.

Quantum2003 - I was not insulted by your honesty - I appreciate it! The IQ testing is all new to me, as is DYS. I am learning. She actually may be underachieving in math - that has occurred to me before, actually. It is a shame that there has been no math acceleration yet at school (she will almost certainly qualify for accelerated math, when it is eventually provided, from what I have been told) - only differentiation. She loves to read - fiction and non-fiction (science, mostly), but I have had a very difficult time after-schooling her in math (she resists). Because she is generally awesome about reading and learning science on her own (a bit of an autodidact with science), I do not push additional math on her very hard (encourage, don't force).

I actually agree with you - I would think only the reading MAP demonstrates her strengths, and would help with DYS. She clearly has areas of strength, even at 8!

I would prefer not cluttering an application, too. I would prefer to use scores, if possible. I am just trying to salvage what I can from current testing, because I feel as though this child has been sent through a gauntlet of testing in the past year.

Her CogAT scores were 99% composite, with a definite strength in verbal, followed by nonverbal (she has always been awesome with puzzles). It is interesting to me how her strengths DO match up with her areas of preference. The school did not share all of the SAS scores, but it appears from the data provided that she may have hit the ceiling (or come close) on the verbal portion of the CogAT. Not sure that would help with DYS.

Again, learning - and I appreciate the honesty and candor, really! Thank you!

Loy58, I'm sending you a PM.

Thanks, apm221. PM'd you back!

From what i read of the CogAT, it's not hard for kids to hit a ceiling on it and get all of the questions correct, esp. if they are given the level for their grade rather than an advanced level. For instance DD took it in second grade but was given the third grade version, which the test manufacturers actually recommend so that the school can find the kids who are actually "gifted". DYS is looking for scores above the 99.9th percentile and I'm not sure the CogAT even breaks it down that way.

Sounds like you should take the WASI and figure out how to get those two additional sub-tests and turn it into a WISC GAI. Maybe the school psych would be willing to do those two extra tests or you could take the school WASI to someone independent and just pay for 2 subtests and a "conversion" if possible? If the school gives you or her/him the raw scores, they should be able to do that. I have all the raw scores from DD's WISC, I just asked for her to make a copy of the handwritten score sheet. The WASI probably has a similar sheet.

Thanks, everyone. I think I am going to see what we can do with the current IQ testing, and then complete some listed achievement testing. I think test scores are just simpler and I believe we can try to meet the requirements that way.

Again, thank you!