Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What "elite" math camps are there?

Minecraft and D&D sound like other great options. None of this is to say the math camps couldn't also be of amazing worth, but I think I'd try some other things first, maybe? We also live an intentionally thrifty lifestyle so I really get where you are coming from.

Thanks, everyone (OP, here). I'll hopefully be able to make detailed replies soon.

One standard way is to take a math achievement test and score at least 3 standard deviations above average, see e.g. here
http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx
(so a score of 145+ on a test with mean 100, standard deviation 15).

Some school administered group tests have too low ceilings, so they can't be used to distinguish the top 0.1% (though again they can be if one takes it at a much younger than standard age).

On the other hand scoring X on math competition Y at age Z could in some cases put someone in a much narrower range than top 0.1%


No. And Epsilon Camp has similar cutoffs. DS7 exceeds the 145 cutoff for math achievement by a ton, but doesn't have the IQ score (wide scatter). The testing was done for free by a school, and after that I came across this forum when googling for information to understand scores, so hadn't heard of DYS. We decided we weren't going to bother with IQ testing again. In math, I believe competition results will count for more, and can ultimately distinguish those at high level in math specifically. It's actually a bit odd that they ask for an IQ score (maybe they think they don't have much to go on at these ages and want an extra filter). The "older" camps don't seem to mention such scores at all. I have no doubt that DS7 is mathematically good enough for this camp (when he's older, maybe 2015), so I'm tempted to say, "here are his scores/results/schoolwork/recommendation, obviously he's good enough, we're not doing IQ testing, take it or leave it". Anyone else considered this approach?

No. And Epsilon Camp has similar cutoffs. DS7 exceeds the 145 cutoff for math achievement by a ton, but doesn't have the IQ score (wide scatter, 6 subtests 15-18, 4 subtests 7-11). The testing was done for free by a school, and after that I came across this forum when googling for information to understand scores, so hadn't heard of DYS. We decided we weren't going to bother with IQ testing again. In math, I believe competition results will count for more, and can ultimately distinguish those at high level in math specifically. It's actually a bit odd that they ask for an IQ score (maybe they think they don't have much to go on at these ages and want an extra filter). The "older" camps don't seem to mention such scores at all. I have no doubt that DS7 is mathematically good enough for this camp (when he's older, maybe 2015), so I'm tempted to say, "here are his scores/results/schoolwork/recommendation, obviously he's good enough, we're not doing IQ testing, take it or leave it". Anyone else considered this approach?
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I think the thinking behind IQ has to do an additional filter plus achievement testing at that age can be tricky. Dottie may know more, but my understanding is that a 5 yo with high WJIII scores is not as impressive as a 9yo with high WJII scores. On Epsilon camp admissions, they ask for the arithmetic subtest if possible. If your son had this as a subtest and did well (or hit the ceiling), I would ask for them to review even without qualifying IQ scores.

Thanks for the insight into their thinking about asking for IQ scores. It is true that achievement scores are boosted by exposure (e.g. an internet connection, so a kid can teach themselves more easily than when we were kids), but like any test, they measure what they measure. A high achievement score clearly indicates ability too.

Anyway the virtual school told us they'd be testing and did it for free (so DS7 qualified for their gifted label), and as a by-product we have some (scattered) scores which can be used for some things. They didn't do the arithmetic subtest, which is a pity because it certainly would be high (though WMI was high anyway).

By the time 2015 applications roll around, DS may have an AMC8 score and an EXPLORE score, which may or may not be good/great for age. But they'll be a decent amount of data showing math ability.

I just can't see going out and getting an IQ test for the mere possibility of qualifying for a camp.

Yes, when I first saw the website I was excited, then when I saw the price, I was totally deflated.
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/fees.php
The good news is that they say they discount the price for households earning under $120k, (i.e. 85% of US households).
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/financial_aid.php
The bad news is that they say "Up to four students will receive the reduction." meaning they can't possibly be giving everyone a discount according to their own formula "The amount of the fee reduction increases linearly from 0 to $2000 as the total family income decreases from $120000 to $50000".

It looks like the other math camps (e.g. MathPath and MathCamp) offer income based discounts, too.

This definitely makes these more affordable to us, though Epsilon Camp's costs would still add up due to the need for accompanying family members, which are NOT needed (or allowed) for the middle and high school age campers.

It is more a question of the value proposition ($10 lunches?) and considering the consumption of parental vacation time. Last summer DS7 enjoyed a hands on equations camp setup for grades 1-6 for a week at $200 and the top group matched his level even if not his passion.

Regarding qualifying, he also has a similar scatter issue. One of the instructors started the local kid's math club, I might see if I can catch a minute with him about how big the applicant pool is as that might imply how flexible they are on whether a maxed math achievement with a near IQ might work.

DS7 absolutely LOVES mathematics, and loves thinking about and talking about mathematics itself purely for its own sake. These camps definitely sound like his thing. When we told him that these camps existed, and that there was possibility of him going, and he could meet other children like him and do mathematics all day, he was so absolutely thrilled by the prospect that he was overwhelmed with emotion. It definitely has the potential to be life-changing. (Or it might be a let-down academically and/or socially. And it's expensive. And they might not let him in anyway.) But when DS7 saw it he definitely wanted to go. BTW he'll be 8 next summer (2014), so too old for Delta, and we'd be thinking about summer 2015 anyway.

I definitely see how there is a stronger argument to be made for waiting for MathPath (age 11-14)
www.mathpath.org/
rather than Epsilon Camp (age 8-11), though that's a long time for a little kid to wait. The experience (and expense) is postponed, but may be well worth the wait.

Hmmm DS7 is really interested in mathematics itself, rather than other "merely" mathy things. If it's his free time and he's not doing math, then he'll be playing in the park, watching cartoons, going on roller coasters, and other non-mathy fun things.

However you do have a point that maybe he should develop some of those interests and meet kids with at least some compatibility, and the activities could be cheap or free.

I just remembered that there is a local gifted middle school with a Math Club that might let DS7 attend some time in the future when he's mathematically/socially ready. (I'd have to get the timing of that right, as I don't want to "pushy parent" our way in, and then have it go wrong.) That would be the most similar thing to one of the math summer camps, except it would be local and free.

As to "It seems to be that with two math PhD parents and the level of achievement and instruction you describe, you might be disappointed in these camps pedagogically, and the price is so high." that's basically right except I don't think DS would be "above" these camps academically. At the highest level camps I think he'd just be "typical". (And they might not think he's good enough and not let him in, and maybe there's some camp where they'd be right.) What we don't want is some camp or activity that's too low level, especially if expensive, and that's why I really wanted a good idea of how the camps/activities could be "rated" for quality of organizers and participants.

You might be surprised at the quality of the middle schools math clubs/camps you are talking about. My ds school has math camps all summer. They have 2 different classes and they are packed. They go over a ton of discrete math topics at a very quick pace. They have several Math counts test and several team competitions during each week. Even the best kids are challenged. On Friday they set up the gym and have a mock team competition... they call it the guts round competition, kind of based of the MIT type competition. It's worth it just for the kids to hang out with other mathy kids. I am sure it is not up to par with the camps you guys have been looking at but it is very good exposure. Just a thought.