Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Scores Indicate 2e...Suggestions for Next steps

Your knowledge is very helpful and confirming. Yes, OT and a developmental opt screening were suggested and we are pursuing.

So, with remediation and what appears a moderate LD should we see gains in achievement...does the "ball and chain" become lighter? I guess that is what this year is about, huh...no crystal balls but wonder how much the second e eclipses the first, typically.

I too suffer from rapidly decreasing knowledge as mon mentioned lol! But here are a few quick notes and questions for you:

Did your ds have the same percentile scores on both Brery VMI subtests? My kids had two subtests - if I remember correctly one assessed fine motor and the other visual integration and a split in scores there would help clarify things - if a split existed.

The WJ-III achievement tests that are labelled fluency are all timed and reque handwritten responses. IT looks like they are all low scores relative to the others in their category except for math - its a little lower but not by much.... But math requires writing numbers not letters. My dysgraphic ds will tell you that writing numbers is easier than writing letters because there are only 10 numbers to remember. Relatively low scores on spelling and writing samples can both happen with dysgraphia. Applied problems is math bt I don't remember what specifically or how the responses are given.

As mon mentioned, the high achievement scores that our 2e kids can achieve can make it easy for their struggles to be overlooked or missed entirely in the classroom, particularly in early elementary. That's why I'd suggest trying to pin down exactly what is going on - if it is dysgraphia for instance, providing your ds with scribing and/or a keyboard asap will allow him to show his knowledge, lead to less frustration on his part, and be helpful to you in advocating to get him placed appropriately based on his intellectual strengths. We've been in that position of giving teachers the first weeks of the school year to get to know our child - and it never worked out well for us with our 2e ds - I think the challenge for the teachers was simply lack of having taught other 2e students - they had seen challenged students and they'd seen intellectually gifted students but they hadn't seen students with both gifts and challenges.

You asked about siblings and 2e - our ds' sibs aren't genetically related to him so they aren't a good example, but fwiw, he has bio-cousins and other bio-relatives who are dysgraphic and dyslexic. I wouldn't worry about your 3 year old yet, but I would watch for signs. I'd also think through your extended family - are there relatives with known dyslexia etc, or possibly relatives who don't like to read etc?

One other test that was really helpful for us in understanding ds' challenges was the TOWL (Test of Written Language). DS also has been through a speech assessment (CELF), which had large discrepancies in scores, and has been through subsequent speech therapy. In ds' case, as with some dysgraphics, there was more to his reluctance to use writing than lack of automaticity with handwriting - he also had an expressive language challenge that was not at all easy to recognize due to his ability to express himself verbally and due to his high IQ etc scores. We had to first get appropriate handwriting accommodations in place before we saw the full picture - which isn't unusual with 2e kids - it's more often a journey than a "quick fix".

Best wishes,

polarbear

Hope some of that helps!

We were posting at the same time so I missed this while writing my loooong reply

I wouldn't worry abut what you see on the WJ-III results as a measure of true achievement - compare them to what you see inyour ds, but remember they measure very specific sets of skills. True achievement (jmo) is more readily assessed through what happens in the classroom and in the types of achievement tests thatst schools use for all students. At least that's been our experience - take it for what it's worth!

Our family's experience has been that the challenge E takes center-stage during the early elementary years for several reasons - it takes effort to untangle the exact issues, it's a challenge for the student, and nice you know what it is you still don't necessarily NW all the answers re accommodations and remediation because that ales time and every student is unique. It can make recognizing the intelligence gifts and abilities difficult for searchers and mighty mean there are school opportunities your ds won't have that he wod have had if not for the challenge E. OTOH, once your are past the early years of learning the ins and outs of what is going on and how to accommodate and remediate, youll find the challenges taking much more of a back seat andthe intellectual gifts will shine. My ds is in middle school now, and although he still is and will always be dysgrhic, and will most likely notchoosewriting as a career path he is a happy, well-adjusted kid who is doing very well in school and has many opportunities for advanced studies.

polarbear

I posted this in a different thread back in March, but it seems relevant here:
I'm not familiar enough with the tests your DS had to know whether any of this applies, or does not apply, to him, but it might give you food for thought in terms of teasing apart possible diagnoses.

UPDATE:

Thank you everyone for help this summer. I'd like your thoughts as we approach the half-way mark of first grade. As a remember my son is 6 in first grade; he tested with GAI of 170 and his strength was in VCI. His relative weakness was in Processing with a 70 PT gap between VCI/PCI; 55+ gap PCi/PRI and 30+ gap WMI/PCI. His achievement scores were depressed compared to ability and he showed confidence issues during Achievement portion of assessment. A LD was suspected but Ed psych couldn't narrow down as phono awareness is strong.

1. He was accepted into gifted program at school based on CoGat and ITBS. Relief. His Cogat scores were not as high as WISC but understand they aren't comparable. Thengifted program is a full day pull out based on higher level thinking so it is a wonderful break from the rote aspect of elementary school.

2. He sees an OT for 60 minutes a week. He qualified for handwriting and motor planning. I asked if we should pursue dyspraxia and dysgraphia as possible LDs and she encouraged I seek a neuropsychologist to assess as he has some red flags.

3. He sees and OG reading tutor 45 minutes a week. When she assessed she noted his phonic skills are strong so that part of his development seems intact! She clocked his fluency at 97 WPM. He has improved so much with his spelling as he learns all the rules. I'm not convinced dyslexia is the reason for the big gap in achievement/IQ and processing speed weakness...but also recognize he is protected a lot with his 170 GAI thus hard to tease out. I'll keep with the tutor for now as he enjoys it...says he learns more from her in 45 minutes than a whole week of school.

4. Surprisingly to us he was identified for speech at school. Th/f and d/t plus swallowing his Rs. The therapy is helping and the issue is minor...

5. While Ed psych recommended we see a developmental optometrist we saw an ophthalmologist and he plus my pedi spooked my DH from exploring vision therapy further. I know there are several POVs on that subject but we have tabled it for now.

So it appears we now have a common processing story with some minor struggles in writing, spelling, reading and speech...all minor though...add motor planning and a picture seems to be forming. Whether this picture explains the underachievement, I don't know...dyspraxia, dysgraphia and stealth dyslexia have all been disorders suggested. I'm thinking our next step is a neuro psych to get a firm diagnosis so I can start lining up accommodations as they become needed. I'd like some advice from all of you!

Finally his regular school time is not going great. He has had difficulty connecting with classmates. He does have recess with BFF. He complains that he just sits there all day practicing the same thing over and over and he feels he already knows this stuff (he seems surprised as he is a trusting sort who expects if work is given to him he must need it...). His teacher is a bit of a mystery and so is his classroom work. she barely sends work home. during PTC she had two writing samples available to share, she doesn't allow volunteers in class and has ignored my request for copies of his reading assessments even with clear explanations. His first quarter report was mostly 3s(meeting standard) after all 4s the year prior. Rumor is she is very controlling, not friendly with other teachers/parents and caters to lowest denominator. The drawback is he is getting zero differentiation from her and I do not have a partner to help tease issues apart. What she has offered during PTC and a meet with VP and AIG early in the year is...his handwriting is fine when he focuses on it. That his reading is fine. That his underachievement is just because he is a bit immature. And the only thing she grasped onto is how sensitive he is. Can you tell I'm not a fan.

Any advice as to next steps is always appreciated. My plan based on advice I received from trusted others on another gifted board is to reach out to gifted teacher to seek guidance for classroom goals and persue diagnosis as better to have things in place then wait for issues.

I'm confused. If the gifted program is a full day pull out, then why is he in regular school at all.

Is he in first grade? Did they give you a percentile for reading fluency?

It does sound like dyspraxia/dysgraphia assessments would be in order. Did he reach speech milestones on time as well as motor skills? My dyspraxic DS had problems with combining words and forming phrases--he was almost 30 months before he formed phrases on a regular basis. Now that he is 6, his speech is still slow and seems dysfluent. Articulation is greatly improved and almost all his speech is understandable, but he still has problems with Th and R. He also has problems with most gross motor skills like hopping on one foot, catching balls, etc. You could do a private OT/PT eval first. They probably can't diagnose anything but they can give basic motor skills tests. You will want fine motor tests that are timed and purely physical (rather than having mental components). DS did just awful on something called the "Grooved Pegboard" which was timed and involved screwing pegs into a board, but there are other assessments as well, that go into more detail. You will want to look for evals with subtests that are purely physical, like manipulating small objects. A lot of high IQ kids will do Ok on handwriting or copying tests because those involve a mental component. You could start there and then depending on the results go for a neuropsych eval.

You already have most of the tests a typical neuropsychologist would run, but given the OT has seen red flags and the uncertainty you have re what's up, I think my next step would be a neuropsych eval.


FWIW, (and I'm not a professional, just a parent of 2e kids, so take my opinion truly for what it's worth - not much!!!), the profile your ds has on his WISC and WJ-III Achievement tests looks more like dysgraphia than dyslexia. Like you, I'd leave him with the tutor though since he's enjoying it


This actually doesn't surprise me, if there's a chance he's dyspraxic. People who are dyspraxic sometimes have speech issues too. My dyspraxic ds has a few articulation issues which are *very* subtle but they are definitely there.


I won't hammer in my pov, but fwiw, I'm not surprised an ophthamologist pooh-poohed the idea of vision therapy, and I have two children for whom vision therapy made a *world* of difference so I'm a big supporter of it for kids who have a demonstrated need. I think I asked before about your ds' Beery VMI subtests - this is a place you could look to see if there is an indication of visual-motor challenges that are vision related.


The neuropsych eval will be valuable to you for three reasons - first, you can (hopefully) firm up a diagnosis and get a better understanding for root cause (fine motor, visual processing, etc). Second, you'll have a report that you can use for advocating for accommodations/etc at school. More important (imo) than just having the documentation for school, the neuropsych should be able to help you see a plan forward for *life*, not just for school, and should also be able to give you references for whatever therapists etc he/she feels are necessary.


Most likely he already does know this stuff. Elementary school (outside his challenges from the second e) was excruciatingly boring for my ds. The neuropsych may be able to help you with recommendations on how to go forward re a school plan for the gifted side of your ds' 2e. I know that folks on here tend to emphasize the importance of finding a neuropsych who sees gifted children regularly... fwiw... I found that seeing a *local* neuropsych held almost as much value for us because our neuropsych knew the local schools well and in many cases was familiar with school staff and potential obstacles we'd face in one school vs another.


One thing that helped me advocate for my dysgraphic ds (also in a similar situation where classwork samples weren't being sent home) was to prepare writing samples at home that illustrated the impact of his dysgraphia - things like having him write a story using handwriting and then write a very similar assignment using keyboarding (be sure to time the writing). I could then pull those samples out at school meetings when the staff questioned whether or not there was an issue - it was obvious from looking at them that there were several issues!


I don't really care for this teacher much either (and I don't even know her lol)... but fwiw... we also ran into teachers in our elementary school who gave 3s rather than 4s even when my kids clearly should have been at "4"... the teachers explained it as "they aren't expected to be at 4 until the end of grade whatever they were in". So the teachers were using it as proof the kids were advancing "properly"... when really it was just either laziness or lack of even paying attention on the teachers part or maybe just a big attempt to make sure all students were right there smack-dab-in-the-middle of expectations. It was so not related to the actual student's work or abilities, but instead seemed to be more about the teacher meeting the school district's guidelines for how to report.


Two things to watch out for here. First the "it's fine" - it probably *looks* fine for a child who isn't as high ability. But remember that it's not "fine" that is what your child is entitled to under Federal Law. The ADAA guarantees that your child has the right to FAPE, and to access FAPE, he needs to be able to *show* the full extent of his knowledge.

The second red flag I see here is her comment "when he focuses on it". Being able to write well sometimes and not at other times was a huge issue for my dysgraphic ds. His issue went beyond the physical mechanics of holding a pencil and forming letters - he also had issues with generating ideas and simply getting started writing - but sometimes he could. Teachers would look at that seeming inconsistency and think he wasn't trying... when really the inconsistency was related to the type of writing assignment and prompt give. There are also even now, as a teen who's been through a ton of remediation, some days that writing just flows easier than it does on other days. It's so not about motivation at all - and our ds' SLP has reassured our ds many times that even for professional authors, writing doesn't just flow every day - you have to be in the mood.

I think your plan to seek a neuropsych eval as well as seeking advice from the gifted teacher for classroom goals is a good plan - good luck as you move forward, and let us know how everything goes!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'm confused. If the gifted program is a full day pull out, then why is he in regular school at all.
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It is one day a week.

Yes, first grade. No percentile...she said in line with third grade. He was late with milestones but was a 33 week preemie so we chalked it up to that. He was in PT at 2.5-3.5 for struggles with stairs, jumping and throwing. We were told he had upper body low muscle tone and motor planning delays. once those skills were mastered I pulled him as PT was obsessed with his sensory stuff that I wasn't concerned with as I chalked up to OEs. We had him OT/PT assessed a few months back, again and he qualified for both writing and coordination. They said his motor skills were at a 4-2 yo level and at the time he was 6.9 you