Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC Digits Backwards and Difficulty Visualizing

DS7 scored very well in Working Memory on the WISC (scores below) but the psychologist reported that he “seems to be struggling with using visualization as a way to remember auditory information (as evidenced by his weakness in repeating numbers backwards on Digit Span)”. She noted that he was able to repeat up to 8 numbers forwards, but only 3 numbers backwards (on one trial). It seems strange to be worrying about this when he scored a 144 on Working Memory, but I am seriously wondering if his difficulty with Digit Span Backwards is related to his difficulties with spelling, handwriting and drawing, and whether there is something we can do to address this.

Specifically, he can easily read Dolch sight words when he sees them in isolation (he often misreads or skips them when reading sentences), but he is horrible at spelling them. He still has trouble spelling words like ‘was’ and ‘what’ and only starting spelling ‘the’ with confidence a couple of months ago. He also has very poor handwriting and he often asks me things like “How do I make a ‘t’ again?” How can a seven-year-old with an FSIQ over 150 not know how to make a ‘t’ ???

We homeschool and I’ve been using a method to teach sight words that asks the child to stare at a word until he can see it in his mind and then look at a blank wall and see that word. He says he can’t do this. Is there a way to teach this skill? Is this the primary reason why he is such a poor speller and can’t remember how to write his letters?

Here are the relevant WISC Scores (hard to believe there could be a hidden problem in here):

Working Memory 144 99.7th percentile
Digit Span 17 99th percentile
Letter-Number Sequencing 18 99.6th percentile

I would appreciate any thoughts on what this all means. Thanks!

I can't answer your question specifically about ability to visualize, but the above description of symptoms including very poor spelling and extreme handwriting struggles sounds like dysgraphia. Your DS could very well have FSIQ over 150 and have dysgraphia. Has he had any achievement testing or other diagnostic testing? If you suspect dysgraphia, and I certainly would, there are additional tests that will help rule it in or out.

Did you discuss his struggles with the psychologist? What did she say?

My DD just turned 8 and she hasn't taken the WISC, but I asked her to do digit span forwards and backwards. She can repeat about 5 numbers backwards but I'm pretty sure she is not doing it visually. When I do it myself I'm not doing it visually either. As she repeats backwards, she's remembering them forwards auditorially, and then reverses them

I tried writing numbers on a piece of paper and having her look for a few seconds, then taking it away, and she can't remember them that way as well as just saying them and then repeating them.

This is an interesting link on visual-spatial thinkers--maybe he will fit in one category or another and it will give you more insight. Or maybe it will just be more confusing. My DD is mostly on the right. She is pretty good with spelling and phonics though which is on the left.
http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm

My child has the same type profile. His working memory is "superior" but his reverse digit score is poor. Further testing indicated, according to the report, that my DS depends very heavily on learning auditorily and not visually. My DS has dysgraphia and a visual processing disorder. He has a great deal of problems with writing (due both to dysgraphia and EDS and vision), his spelling and phonics are also very low - his WISC IV score was 139 with very high VCI and exceedingly low processing speed. Developmental Coordination Disorder (aka dyspraxia) is very almost always accompanied by dysgraphia (and visual processing problems) ... when I was reading the main book on dyspraxia/dcd called "Understanding Developmental Dyspraxia - A textbook for Students and Professionals" by Madeline Portwood, the author noted that digits forward and digit backwards may involve different cognitive processes, especially in certain clinical groups and that studies show that the performance of dyspraxic youngsters highlights significant weakness in repeating the digits backwards. So, pparticularly in cases where the child struggles with the backwards digits, it is part of the profile of a dysraxic child.

fwtxmom, My husband and I remember asking the psychologist about her comment regarding Digit Span Backwards since it appeared contradictory to say that he “seems to be struggling with using visualization” when her report also states that he has “exceptionally advanced spatial reasoning skills” and is “strongly visual-spatial.” He definitely fits more into the visual-spatial category when I look at the link provided by blackcat. The psychologist didn’t really give us a clear explanation of her comment and I wasn’t too concerned at the time since he’d scored so high. But recently I’ve been thinking back to that comment since this issue came up when trying to visualize sight words. Perhaps the issue with repeating numbers in reverse is not actually a problem with using visualization but a symptom of dyspraxia as mentioned by Irena? Similar to blackcat’s DD, my husband and I also used auditory repetition when trying to repeat digits backwards, so maybe visualization isn’t used by everyone in this task.

Irena, my son also has relatively low processing speed (particularly on the Coding subtest on which he scored at the 25th percentile), he struggles with phonics, and has been told he has convergence insufficiency and poor eye movement control (which also confuses me because he scores so highly on tests of visual perceptual skills). He has been receiving OT and PT since February, but with little improvement in his handwriting. We have tried some Vision Therapy at home after seeing a developmental optometrist in another state (there are no developmental optometrists in our area) but those exercises fell off our list of priorities. I think I need to read more about Developmental Dyspraxia since it sounds like it could be an underlying issue related to many of DS’s symptoms. I don’t think he was ever given an official diagnosis by his OT, but Developmental Coordination Disorder/Dyspraxia/Dysgraphia definitely seem to fit.

He sounds a lot like a 7 year old with dysgraphia based on what you've mentioned above, and I noticed that in another thread you mentioned his fine motor score on the Beery VMI was very low. This all points to fine-motor dysgraphia - and yes, it is *very* possible for a 7 year old with an FSIQ > 150 to not *remember* how to make a t. My dsygraphic 14 year old *still* has to "remember" how to form each letter when he writes. My ds has also always been a very advanced reader (once he actually started reading), and at a young age could easily read very advanced words. He can't spell worth a darn - and one of the symptoms of dysgraphia, fwiw, is seeing different misspellings of the same word in the same sample of writing.

polarbear

My 6 year old DS has developmental coordination disorder and probably also motor dysgraphia (I just posted on the thread about it). Digit span and coding were his two lowest scores (both 10's). He also seems to be a visual-spatial learner in that he hit the ceiling on some of the subtests of the visual perception test he took (for instance visual memory and visual-spatial ability). When he was 5, he memorized a map of the U.S. that I put on his wall as a decoration, and this was right after a traumatic brain injury from which he had brain damage and one eye was paralyzed and stuck in place in the corner by his nose. So he had double vision at all times unless we patched his other eye (we always had to patch the normal eye). So he had major issues with his vision.

What seems odd is that he is so visual spatial you'd think he would be poor at phonics and decoding, but he can decode just about anything using phonics, even words he's never seen before (he reads them kind of like a computer voice). I don't think there are clear links between how visual-spatial a kid is and how they learn to read, at least not for everyone. And even on the perceptual vision test that he did he was using auditory strageies to remember the information. For instance on one of the tests there would be a series of numbers or letters and he would have to pick the right one out from a multiple choice test on the next page. When he was looking at them, he read them aloud and remembered the images based on auditory strategies and also looking for patterns in the sequences. On another test where he had to recall a picture, he was also looking for patterns and saying them aloud, for instance "This picture has the planet Uranus inside of a cabinet." (he talked to himself through the entire test which was fascinating--we could see how he was figuring everything out). When he recalls where the states are based on memorizing the map in his room, I'm not sure if he is forming an image in his head or not, but he knows what shape they are and how they fit together--like puzzle pieces. He is able to draw them from memory and when I ask him how he knows things like Nevada being next to California he says it's because they fit together (in a "Duh, Mom" type of voice). Do people who are "visual spatial learners" really think in images, like a photographic memory? I don't know--I think they may just be seeing patterns in everything or how parts fit together into a whole.

Just some observations I've made in terms of my DS--not sure if it helps or not.

The Beery VMI scores are partly why I am so confused. He scored at the 99th percentile for Visual Perception but below the 1st percentile for Fine Motor Coordination. Similarly on the WISC, he scored in the 25th percentile on Coding but at the 91st on Symbol Search (as I understand it Coding requires more fine motor skills). He also scored very high on the Test of Visual Perceptual Skills – non-motor (TVPS-nm). I interpret these scores as meaning his visual skills are fine, but it is the physical act of writing that is difficult (i.e., making the muscles do what he wants). But perhaps I am interpreting this incorrectly? I easily understand why he has trouble with the physical act of writing a ‘t’, but can't understand why he needs to ask me how to make a ‘t’ (or he requires a visual cue by looking at a set of letter tiles we have in the room to see what a ‘t’ looks like ). So, is it possible to have strong visual perception skills, but still have difficulty visualizing what a ‘t’ looks like?

Of course, this happens with some other letters as well, I am just using ‘t’ as an example since he seems to ask about that one a lot.

I would really like to understand this better so I can better support my son, so I greatly appreciate all the feedback I’ve been receiving! This discussion board is amazing!

Thanks!

My interpretation is that you are interpreting it correctly! The split you are seeing in scores (high-low) on the Beery VMI and on the processing subtests (coding vs symbol search) is exactly what my the test score profile looks like for my ds who has fine-motor dysgraphia.


I think that the key here is in understanding that "fine motor dysgraphia" doesn't mean that a child has impaired fine motor function in a purely physical sense. A child who had been injured in a way that harmed their fingers, for instance, may have difficulty forming a "t" when they are handwriting - but their brain is still sending them the correct information re *how* to form the "t". Dysgraphia is an impairment in neurological function - ie, the brain does not send the correct information to the fine motor muscles in the finger to allow it to correctly form the "t". I'm not a professional psych, so don't quote me on any of this - this is just my understanding from what our neuropsych has told us and from what I've read.


Again, I'm not a professional, but from what I understand, for children with fine-motor dysgraphia, the issue isn't visualization, it's the connection between the brain telling the fingers what to do. For most of us, the connection works well and over time we develop an automaticity of handwriting - we don't have to think to form the letters. For kids with fine motor dysgraphia, their brain isn't sending the correct signals, so each time they have to write a letter, they have to basically remember how to do it or relearn it all over again.

I hope that doesn't sound discouraging! The handwriting of my dysgraphic ds *did* improve - first in legibility (with OT), gradual decreases over time in the number of reversals etc, and gradual increases in speed. The important thing though, is that in spite of those improvements, he will never catch up in speed/legibility and most importantly *automaticity* to a neurotypical peer - which means he's never going to be able to rely on his handwriting to fully show his knowledge at school or in life. That's why it's so important to really understand - is it dysgraphia? And if it is, start accommodations when your child is still young.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Your DS sounds a lot like mine in terms of various test results but he seems to know how to write all the letters and doesn't make errors like that. I wish I had an answer for you! It does seem odd that he does so well on the Beery and the TVPS but can't remember how the letters look. I assume he did just fine when he was learning to recognize and read them?
There are different types of dysgraphia. My DS seems to be purely motor but I think a person can have a combination. Here they are from Wikipedia:

Dyslexic

People with dyslexic dysgraphia have illegible spontaneously written work. Their copied work is fairly good, but their spelling is usually poor. Their finger tapping speed (a method for identifying fine motor problems) is normal, indicating that the deficit does not likely stem from cerebellar damage.

Motor

Motor dysgraphia is due to deficient fine motor skills, poor dexterity, poor muscle tone, or unspecified motor clumsiness. Letter formation may be acceptable in very short samples of writing, but this requires extreme effort and an unreasonable amount of time to accomplish, and it cannot be sustained for a significant length of time, as it can cause arthritis-like tensing of the hand. Overall, their written work is poor to illegible even if copied by sight from another document, and drawing is difficult. Oral spelling for these individuals is normal, and their finger tapping speed is below normal. This shows that there are problems within the fine motor skills of these individuals. People with developmental coordination disorder may also suffer from dysgraphia. Writing is often slanted due to holding a pen or pencil incorrectly.[2]

Spatial

A person with spatial dysgraphia has a defect in the understanding of space. They will have illegible spontaneously written work, illegible copied work, and problems with drawing abilities. They have normal spelling and normal finger tapping speed, suggesting that this subtype is not fine motor based.