Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Correlation between high verbal and gender?

Hi All,

I am a regular poster who is choosing to lurk for this question.

Is anyone here aware of any studies or research etc showing correlation between different types of ability and gender? A friend and I are particularly interested in learning whether or not there is a higher distribution of girls among high verbal ability scores (we're looking at learned ability tests such as CogAT and innate ability tests such as WISC, etc). Please know - this isn't coming from any sexist bias - it's actually related to advocacy.

We are also interested in hearing from parents here who's children scored unexpectedly low on the CogAT relative to IQ test results (WISC etc). Was your child given the full CogAT or only the verbal section?

Your insights and info are very much appreciated,

lurking_for_now

My DD in third grade took the CogAT and I'm working on getting her a WISC. The problem with the CogAT was that she finished the verbal section but not the other two sections. So she did very well on the verbal section but not the other two sections. You can't do well if you leave half the test blank. She took a timed version. I think she took a different version of the CogAT when she was grade accelerated in kindergarten (only a little over a year earlier) and her non-verbal score was actually much higher than verbal. So obviously there are problems with the CogAT with huge discrepancies like that. My DS had the WISC and had a GAI in the 99th percentile and I know DD is just as bright as he is, which is why we're now pursuing outside testing. The CogAT is not a reliable test (probably esp. for 2e kids). Other moms who I talked to who have their kids in GATE were saying that their kids CogAT scores were all over the place as well, with some kids dramatically improving from one test to the next (practice at home?). One of my friend's DD's also took it for the first time and her math score was low (because she didn't finish) despite the fact that she was learning long division in first grade and is always 99.9 percentile on math achievement testing done by the school. She didn't do well on the non-verbal section either.

I get a little annoyed by the stereotype that girls are naturally more gifted verbally.... Of course that's due to the fact that I have a boy who is gifted verbally - according to his WISC scores he is in the 99%ile for VCI (he scored very high on all three subtests) but scored much lower in the PRI. I think often times schools don't bring out the verbal side of boys because they are not as tolerant of boys interests. One excample, my son's creative writing is often focused on strife and adventure... he has been REPEATEDLY disciplined for it. He has been told he is not permitted to use the phrase "dark forces" in his creative writing, for example (that is just one example of MANY). It has gotten a little better as he gets higher in the grades.... but it's been a nightmare really. He's gotten in trouble for having (or writitng about) dinosaurs fight! I am not kidding. He said "they want us to be like girls - the girls have the dinosaurs set up house and take care of children and the teachers praidse them for that! But look at them! Look at how they look - obviously they were fighting not playing nice all day, why else would they have spikes and such!" That was when he was in PRE-k. Anyway, I digress... To answer your question, I have one very verbally gifted boy and my other appears to be more gifted in the spatial perceptual/PRI area (but he hasn't been tested yet). Neither has ever taken the CogAT.

My DD scored in the 97th percentile in verbal, 99+ in visual. It's a profile similar to mine.

I'm a bit confused by your question. Can you explain a little more about what you're looking for and why? It just seems...a bit odd that you and a friend are advocating together. Your second question seems very specific. Are you doing a research project or something for school?

Not sure about the studies on this.

DD had a 99% CogAT verbal. I think she actually may have hit a ceiling on verbal, because her composite was also 99% (we did not get SAS scores), despite a "9C" profile. She also scores well above 99% on NWEA reading tests (math is above 99%, too, just not as high above 99% ), and she is a "book eater." She spoke early and is (and has always been) an EXTREMELY verbal child - the verbal scores are no surprise to me. So she fits the "girl" stereotype, I guess.

Actually, the assumption about the CogAT that probably bugs me more is that kids who do well on the CogAT are not creative, out-of-the box thinkers. DD is VERY creative, and is DEFINITELY a very out-of-the-box, independent thinker. I think she could be an inventor.

One of my sons scored unexpectedly low on the screening test used in my district to identify gifted children. They didn't tell me the name of the test. His verbal score was 99.9% and he only scored 45% on the non-verbal. He was in kindergarten, and was 6.1 years old.

He didn't make the official cut-off for IQ testing, but they elected to give him the WISC anyway because of his high score on the verbal section. He scored in the HG range on the WISC. The WISC tester even noted to us that she didn't understand his low scores on the screening test because he didn't seem to have any issues on the WISC.

My opinion on that is he probably just decided he was "done" with it and stopped trying. Also, the tester said that in one particular section of the WISC where he had a lower score he didn't seem to really be paying attention, but seemed more interested (and performed better) when she moved on to what she considered to be a "more difficult" section. Honestly, it makes me wonder if his WISC score is accurate...

Here is a blog post by a psychologist affiliated with the Duke TIP talent search that cites some recent research:

http://www.creativitypost.com/education/are_sex_differences_in_math_abilities_increasing
Are Sex Differences In Math Abilities Increasing?
By Dr. Jonathan Wai
June 04, 2013

I wonder if it were the OLSAT. That is the screening they use at my son's school. DS scored unexpectedly lower on the verbal (not low-low but, surprisingly to me, alot lower than the non-verbal section, which he did score relatively high on) and not high enough overall to qualify for wisc testing by the school. However, I know exactly what went "wrong" - my understanding is that the ability to listen closely and remember oral information affects the verbal portion of the OLSDAT more significantly than the non-verbal portion of that test and that the child must be paying complete attention to each word for every verbal item in order to answer it correctly. THe tester will NOT under any circumstances repeat the oral instruction more than once. DS needs things repeated - at least he did at that age... In the wisc they will repeat instructions and questions as much as he wanted.

Can only answer part of your question, as our kids don't have IQ scores for comparison. Both our DD and DS scored 99% on the verbal and received 99% composite scores on the CoGAT. Our school gives the whole test. Both kids scored lower than expected on the non-verbal/quant sections, though DD reported that she didn't finish either section (she was a methodical perfectionist at the time, which probably explains it.)



Totally agree with this- both my kids are creative, and my DS, who scored higher than DD, is quite "out-of-the-box" as well, though I think both are good test-takers, skilled at understanding what questions are asking, if that makes sense.