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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 741
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 741 |
...I resented going to church, even as a little kid. I got absolutely nothing out of it --- EVER --- and there were so many things I would have preferred to do, like building my treehouse or skating or watching Top Cat. A Hanna-Barbera fan, I see!  My favorite animation team. I met them once in a book signing and recently have been sharing their vintage cartoons with DS and explaining the creative process in animation. He was so excited by storyboards and to see that same come to life on a DVD. Sorry for the detour, Melessa.
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,513 Likes: 1
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Okay. How long is the Shabbat ritual on Fridays? I attended one once, and it lasted for 20 minutes or more. I remember ritual handwashing (each person), blessing the candles, and a blessing with bread, and maybe more? There were some long prayers. Not sure. Either way, it was long. The ritual for us is about 5 minutes at the beginning and 5 minutes at the end. We actually are not all that religious, or it would be longer. I agree that we need to find some way to explore this. I usually find that the best way to have a conversation with him is at a restaurant over dessert. Maybe I'm reading into the tea leaves too closely, but I get the sense your son is trying to flesh out your beliefs. You mention that you retain Shabbat traditions more for the cultural significance. Maybe this needs to be the basis for a frank discussion of what constitutes belief vs. Jewish identity, with an explanation of the importance of the latter to you. I think Val hits on a nice point with her suggestion to understand your son's feelings around school and ritual. Enjoy your dessert!
What is to give light must endure burning.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,691 Likes: 1
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I look at religion and spirituality as 2 different things. DH and I just happened to both be raised RC, and so it was easy to bring in the cultural things, the baptism. The first communion was a little trickier since they wanted 2 years of Sunday school. I had 3 weeks before mine and still Catholic. So I ordered the 2nd year book and we did a crash course over a week and did the first communion in Cancun. It was really nice, it was Easter, the priest made it very special. She had a communion candle and went up to the altar and they lit it off the big candle. Culturally it was a big thing.
And doing the crash course myself I was able to explain about religion, why they created it the way they did, talked about power, control, men in charge, whether it was pope, priest or king. Religion helps explain a lot of history. Without it, you leave a vacuum.
On a spiritual side, I believe that is a path everyone has to figure out on their own. You take what feels right, discard what doesn't and you find your own truth.
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Wren, I would respectfully disagree with your assertion that "ritual" and "religion" are always separable. In Catholicism, which you reference, this is untrue because the ritual is fundamentally sacramental. Communion, for instance, is believed by Catholics to be the receipt of God Himself and a participation in the original Paschal sacrifice.
That said, I agree with the general spirit of your last line, which is that we are free to choose (or not choose) a religion. Right on!
A general aside:
Just thought I'd make a gentle reminder to everyone that interpreting religions' traditions at face value without a deeper understanding of the spiritual underpinnings may be inaccurate or offensive. We, the posters, represent a minority of the traffic on this site, and we should endeavour to be as accurate as possible in representing various religious perspectives.
What is to give light must endure burning.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2
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...we should endeavour to be as accurate as possible in representing various religious perspectives. But Wren was raised in the RC church. She understands it and is allowed to have her opinion/perspective. The thing about religion is that it's so open to personal interpretation, making "accurate statements" isn't possible in many cases. They don't exist, except in the mind of each believer. This is where arguments about "truth" start. The Shabbat ritual we've been talking about is a good example of interpretation. Eema may see the ritual in a cultural context, and her son may see it in a purely religious context. Each interpretation works for each of them, and that's okay. This is each person's right. I can see how problems at home can result from different perspectives, and personally believe that Eema and her son may need a frank discussion that allows each to understand the other's perspective. I suggest trying to figure out what each person needs from the other regarding the smaller dinner question and the larger question about religious and cultural practices. IMO, this may be the route to a meaningful solution. But making claims about who is accurate just creates problems.
Last edited by Val; 08/21/13 06:09 PM. Reason: Fix iPhone typos
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Joined: Nov 2012
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But Wren was raised in the RC church. She understands it and is allowed to have her opinion/perspective. The thing about religion is that it's so open to personal interpretation, making "accurate statements" isn't possible in many cases. They don't exist, except in the mind of each believer. This is where arguments about "truth" start. With respect, Val, that may be true of other faiths, but it is not the case for Catholics who have a single authority and universal teaching. Catholicism is a coumterexample to Wren's assertion, not a questioning of her understanding of her faith. I would also highlight that you and I are speaking to Eema from the outside in, so we are not aware of the nuances in the overlay of the belief system. My message was one of general caution, using Catholicism as an example, because it is easy to view a religion through a secular lens and not appreciate its full meaning. Ritual and religion may not be separable in all cases, and we need to be sensitive to that possibility.
Last edited by aquinas; 08/21/13 06:32 PM.
What is to give light must endure burning.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,299 Likes: 2
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My favorite animation team. I met them once in a book signing and recently have been sharing their vintage cartoons with DS and explaining the creative process in animation. He was so excited by storyboards and to see that same come to life on a DVD.
Sorry for the detour, Melessa. Me too, but I can't resist here. I loved Top Cat. He was just the coolest dude around. I think I'll have to get some DVDs for the kids.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,228
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One of my two favorite teachers in high school, I still think somewhat poorly of, because I had to stand outside of her class as they recited the pledge of allegiance which I couldn't be honest in saying and include the phrase "under god." I even asked her if I could stay in and just skip the phrase. It would be dishonest and disingenuine to include the phrase as it invalidates the whole pledge if you don't believe. That was a very important point of order to me then. Now I don't make a fuss, I just skip it. Actually the pledge of allegiance doesn't really contain the words "under god", or at least hasn't for most of its history.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948
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Sure there seems a need for a dialogue with this teenager. But in the meantime, I have no problem requiring him to sit at the table with his family, and if he doesn't want to participate in the ritual, observe it respectfully, instead of eating alone in another room. That would just be unacceptable in our house. I think HK's questions re: observing other religious rituals were apt here. And the pledge analogy--no, I don't think the student should be forced to stand in the hallway, or to pledge something he/she doesn't believe. But it is reasonable to ask that the person be present and respectful.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948
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I'm on the other side. In my house, I'd rather you stay from the table during prayer and religious ritual, but come over for the actual eating. It respects everyone's beliefs. I would not want to participate in something I thought was just plain wrong, and I wouldn't want anyone to "respect" my beliefs if they think they are just plain wrong.
My sister in law is an atheist who prides herself on respecting everyone. It actually irks me no end that she sits smugly at the table as if an anthropology student studying the rituals. I don't consider this respect at all. Though others may disagree. And she is not my child. I do insist my children go to mass, and as they reach teen time, I will still insist they go to mass. Of course, it's hard for them to make that commitment and it's not always fun for a developing mind to defer to a higher power.
However, if either of my kids come up with decent alternatives such as "mom, I'm not sure what I believe and I am studying and don't feel like I can attend mass" then they will get a pass. But, I won't support laziness of thought. They've got to be really working to sort this out in their minds. Otherwise, I think it makes them too vulnerable to the next fad to come along. They've got to think and research for themselves.
BTW- The Catholic church has so much to research and learn. We've just finished reading Ivanhoe which was a great jumping off point about how man can twist religion to its own purposes, and the importance of all of us acting in good, well informed faith. Good points.
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