Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Religious questions

Okay. I'll try. I'm not in my teenage years, but I remember them well and can offer you some perspective on organized religion and the dubious teen. You see, I've never been interested in religion. Not even a little and not even as a kindergartner. However, I was made to go to church (Roman Catholic) every week until I moved out of the house. I resented going to church, even as a little kid. I got absolutely nothing out of it --- EVER --- and there were so many things I would have preferred to do, like building my treehouse or skating or watching Top Cat. I know that people who are very sincere in their beliefs have trouble understanding this idea, but this is how I am. I was born this way.

Like Judaism, Catholicism has a lot of religion-as-culture and tradition. I knew people who got a lot of out these things. Some people have even told me they need the rituals. I accept that. But I don't need them. In fact, religious rituals are toxic to me.

In trying to see your position from your son's point of view, I wonder if he has the same or a similar outlook. Have you asked him? I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but for the kind of person who doesn't believe, being forced to attend a religious ceremony again and again and again and again can be quite...distressing.

Also, you may see that stuff is based on tradition and community, but your son may not see it that way. He may see religion being sold as something else. You may sense the history and the tradition, but he has a right to not sense them. Not everyone gets something useful out of rituals.

I see your position, and if you continue to practice in spite of having doubts, you're clearly getting something positive out of what you're doing. But your son isn't you. It's up to you to expose him to things that are important to you, but you can't force him to enjoy them or get something out of them. IMO, a 16-year-old is old enough to know that [religious observance x] has no value to him. And also IMO, the more you push him, the more you risk increasing his resentment and pushing him further away from what you're trying to get him to embrace. Give him space and he may develop an interest in the cultural side of Judaism (but don't be surprised if it takes a very long time).

This doesn't excuse him from family obligations, of course. It seems reasonable to expect him to attend on big occasions (such as weddings or when grandparents or other extended family members are present or when you're visiting someone else). But this kind of enforced attendance thing should be rare (again, IMO).

I agree with the above with the caveat that he doesn't tell you or anyone else that is is irrelevant and you help him find someone else to argue with. The meaning of life conversations that are part of the teenage/young adult years are tiresome for older people and an engaged partner is essential.

For the op my sons Sunday school teacher lent me acouple of books the other day "100 questions kids as about God" and "100 questions kids ask about the bible". They probably aren't any good to a Catholic but you could look.

I'm not a teenager, but I suppose the answer you're looking for is that he is. Teens are notoriously self-centered. He probably doesn't understand your perspective, and that's why he's pushing you to see his. He may even think that you'll thank him for showing you the error of your past ways, and that the new, shared set of beliefs will bring you closer together.

Luckily, being a teenager is a temporary psychosis.

In the meantime, it wouldn't be inappropriate at all for you to impose limits on how much you're willing to discuss the subject, and ask him to agree to disagree.

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Humans of any age (and most other animals) are notoriously self-centered. I don't like to dismiss someone's ideas simply because of age. Perhaps that's not what you meant, but it sounded that way.

Most of the kids we talk about on this board can make pretty convincing arguments. Sometimes they're even right and the adults are wrong.

Agreed, Val.

Faith is so personal. It's very much like taste or ability in music, or color perception.

I've gently explained to friends who are people of faith that, in spite of my upbringing in a devoted, faith-based environment, I spent a lifetime trying to dance without being able to hear the music.

I was playing along because I couldn't bear to not share something that was (clearly) so central and joyful a thing to those that I love.

As a non-theist, I eventually gave up trying to pretend because it felt disingenuous to me. That 'coming out' was done with a great deal of regret, given that it has resulted in the complete alienation of extended family. I am what I am. I've tried very hard, and like Val, probably would have been better off if I'd not been forced to continue regular observance during my teens. My mother was quite generous in her approval of my need to explore a variety of different denominations during that time... but less so when I began exploring outside of the mainstream Protestant Christianity that was her personal bedrock.

I love liturgical ritual, art and music-- it's very soothing and lovely. Great, great art has been produced in the name of the world's major faiths. Art that I appreciate as human-created art, not as worship. Important distinction.

When I walked into Notre Dame cathedral in Paris-- it's the way that a non-hearing person admires professional ballroom dancing. I don't :get: the pull that is under it, even if I appreciate the resultant art.

On the flip side, however, I do think that it is VERY important to teach teens about other faiths and that a person's faith is: a) none of your darned business, by and large, b) most DEFINITELY not a point open for uninvited criticism, and c) a matter for complete and total respect which is separate from your own opinion of it on your own behalf. The only real question is-- does it seem to be healthy and nurturing for that other person? If so, be respectful and leave well enough alone.

I would never criticize a member of my family for "prayer" even if I personally would feel silly if I tried it. When they ask me to "join in prayer" I respectfully join hands and keep silent while they pray. I'm not participating-- because I can't and don't. But I'm also being respectful of people that I love a great deal. It's important to them, so it's important enough to me to offer my time, if that makes sense.

So yes, I would expect a minimal amount of tolerance from my child. Just as I'd expect that a gentle "I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask you to stop doing that" if my daughter became an Evangelical who was bent on converting me with every conversation. Social grace-- we all need some, right?


I was NOT always gracious as a teen. (Just imagine that, eh?)

In fact, I was angry that I couldn't seem to "choose" to be like the rest of my family. I didn't want to be an atheist. I wanted, more than anything, to believe-- but I just didn't and couldn't. It's possible that teens who are (relatively) obnoxious about atheist/agnostic leanings within a family of a particular faith are feeling a little upset because they KNOW that there is a connection between faith and culture-- reject one, reject them both. And if you cannot accept one or the other.... well, that's that, isn't it?

I think it might help if parents are more understanding that faith isn't a CHOICE for some people, and let their loved ones know that their love isn't conditional on someone else's faith. I needed to hear that as a teen.

But the problem is that people who have the choice don't necessarily see how it is possible that some others do not.

I'm going to stand with the neuroscience on this one.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

Yes, psychosis it kind of harsh.

Psychopathic is much better. LOL.

My answer is that it depends. Can he elucidate what-- specifically-- he objects to about the meal around the table?

Can you allow him to "opt out" of those elements in a way that feels okay to you both?

Honestly, I do think that not allowing him access to the cultural elements which sideline the religious ones has the potential to be hurtful. It's very reminiscent of my own teens, at any rate. Adolescents are highly sensitized to rejection. Even if they may blow it off in the moment, or seem hostile when it comes from family-- it hurts.

I don't know if compromise is possible here-- but if it is, I would strongly urge you to do that. Is it possible to conduct the ritual portion of your meal as a "prelude" to eating together as a family? I understand that it may just not be so.

Not just no, but hells no. (I know, I don't have a teenager.) I would require him to sit with the family. That is absolutely ridiculous and he is being childish.

I will first confess to not having read this thread in depth as I don't have time, but given that there are a few of you who are catholic with questioning kids, perhaps (or perhaps not!) Denis Edwards' books on Catholicism and evolution / science may be of interest (only likely useful to parents and older children/teens, it's not light reading). Trying to remember titles I am thinking Jesus and the Cosmos & The God of Evolution, but the best bet is probably looking him up on Amazon.