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Joined: Jul 2012
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Thank you all for your input. I genuinely appreciate it, especially from those of you who have been there and done that.
I am curious about how you would handle the following:
My son would like to be excused from our traditional Friday night dinner, since there is some ritual involved. But he would still like to eat the traditional food that I work so hard to make. Just in another room while the rest of us sit at the dining room table. Am I being childish when I tell him that he does not need to join us, but that he cannot share in the traditional Jewish food which I make only because it is the Sabbath? I guess I resent having him take advantage of the effort I put in, without his being willing to sit with us at the same table.
Once again, honest answers are appreciated. I don't think there should be any "resentment" on your part. He simply does not want to participate, but I don't believe he should be excluded from the meal because of it? He is old enough to have a free will. Having a teenager in the house (DSS19), I know they don't mean to hurt our feelings, it's just that we as parents take some things too personal. but take it with a grain of salt ... I personally am an atheist so can't completely relate.
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Thank you all for your input. I genuinely appreciate it, especially from those of you who have been there and done that.
I am curious about how you would handle the following:
My son would like to be excused from our traditional Friday night dinner, since there is some ritual involved. But he would still like to eat the traditional food that I work so hard to make. Just in another room while the rest of us sit at the dining room table. Am I being childish when I tell him that he does not need to join us, but that he cannot share in the traditional Jewish food which I make only because it is the Sabbath? I guess I resent having him take advantage of the effort I put in, without his being willing to sit with us at the same table.
Once again, honest answers are appreciated. I don't think there should be any "resentment" on your part. He simply does not want to participate, but I don't believe he should be excluded from the meal because of it? He is old enough to have a free will. Having a teenager in the house (DSS19), I know they don't mean to hurt our feelings, it's just that we as parents take some things too personal. but take it with a grain of salt ... I personally am an atheist so can't completely relate. I understand he doesn't want to participate in the ritual. But in our family, sitting in another room while we were having a family meal just would not fly. He can sit at the table and observe. I am also heavily influenced by the book Hold on to Your Kids here. I think it is possible to respect his choices re: religion, but I also think it is reasonable to require him to sit with the family.
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Honestly, I think he'll view you as being petty for it. The teen years seem like a time for parents and kids to decide how big of a wedge they want drive into their relationship.
One of my two favorite teachers in high school, I still think somewhat poorly of, because I had to stand outside of her class as they recited the pledge of allegiance which I couldn't be honest in saying and include the phrase "under god." I even asked her if I could stay in and just skip the phrase. It would be dishonest and disingenuine to include the phrase as it invalidates the whole pledge if you don't believe. That was a very important point of order to me then. Now I don't make a fuss, I just skip it.
But as a teen it was very important to me in constructing my sense of self to externalize it that way.
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Karen Armstrong's works are very interesting. (Was trying to remember her name earlier.)
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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We rather let the teenager sit by himself elsewhere than have the rest of the family's dinner spoiled by looking at his bored face and then everyone ends up frustrated. BUT we only do couple dinners together a year. Hubby's always on the road and the rest of us all eat different things (kids due to allergies and sensory issues) are sitting in their own spaces too (kiddy table) so it's not a big deal for us. Family meals just are not our thing.
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That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Humans of any age (and most other animals) are notoriously self-centered. I don't like to dismiss someone's ideas simply because of age. Perhaps that's not what you meant, but it sounded that way. Most of the kids we talk about on this board can make pretty convincing arguments. Sometimes they're even right and the adults are wrong.  I'm going to stand with the neuroscience on this one. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468This also may explain why teenagers often seem so maddeningly self-centered. "You think of them as these surly, rude, selfish people," Jensen says. "Well, actually, that's the developmental stage they're at. They aren't yet at that place where they're thinking about — or capable, necessarily, of thinking about the effects of their behavior on other people. That requires insight."
And insight requires — that's right — a fully connected frontal lobe. I agree 100% with Dude here - all I see him suggesting is that the OP's child is encouraged to agree to disagree - an essential asset to building tolerance and acceptance of other peoples' differences. For the record I don't 'believe' I do want to 'believe' but I just cannot because there IS no rational reason to support it. I do consider myself Roman Catholic and reason to myself that Faith is acceptance in the absence of intellectual proof. So far, my DD has gone along with the RC indoctrination but I fully expect her to question it and work things out for herself one day.
Last edited by madeinuk; 08/21/13 03:32 PM.
Become what you are
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Eema, I would want DS to assist me in preparing the meal if he was going to consume it. Religion aside, he's old enough to be an active participant in the meal preparation process. I know far too many men who were never included in meal prep, and they are needlessly unable to take care of themselves nutritionally in adulthood.
He's also old enough to witness something without being a full participant in it intellectually or spiritually. Respect for different opinions is an important life lesson, as is perspective taking. I would frame all of this meal hooplah as a lesson in respect, and explain to him that his participation is important to family dynamics. How does he feel he is being treated at meal time?
Excuse me for being so bold as to ask, but how do you feel about his rejection of Judaism? How heavyily under Judaism does your responsibility weigh for imparting the faith?
What is to give light must endure burning.
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I definitely feel that it is important to pass on the cultural part of Judaism, if not the religious part. I meant it when I said that there are a lot of Jewish atheists - there are even secular humanist synagogues. But he seems to be rejecting it all, and even more than that, he can't seem to be tolerant of any ritual observance. Again, have you or your husband asked him why it bothers him? I'd give him lots of time to answer. Then ask what he likes about his religious school. But don't frame the question as "If you hate religion here so much, why do you like school??" Try asking gently what he LIKES and leave it at that. I'm going to ask a question, and I hope I'll sound gentle. Okay. How long is the Shabbat ritual on Fridays? I attended one once, and it lasted for 20 minutes or more. I remember ritual handwashing (each person), blessing the candles, and a blessing with bread, and maybe more? There were some long prayers. Not sure. Either way, it was long. If this is the ritual you follow, I can understand why a hungry, growing, nonbelieving teenaged boy might react negatively to doing this every Friday. I do like the idea of asking him to help you cook the meal. That's fair! I can understand that rejection is difficult for you. Maybe you need to explore why he's so hostile. Religious school and religious observance at home sounds like a lot, IMO. I know there are Jewish atheists, but I'm not sure if that's the point here. I'm still wondering about rituals being a trigger. Your son would know. But also IMO, the conversation would have to go carefully to avoid flaring tempers.
Last edited by Val; 08/21/13 04:18 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Through my own (my husband is not Christian) instruction of our DS (6) in the stories of the Bible and his going to a Christian preschool and Kindergarten, he has so far not questioned much. I have.  It's amazing how having a child will challenge one's own beliefs. I am looking at this in a whole new light and am not entirely sure it's what I want for him to believe. I wish you luck with your DD. I hope you'll pray for me. I do believe in God. Just maybe He's not as depicted in what I was taught and now find myself struggling with teaching our DS.
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Excuse me for being so bold as to ask, but how do you feel about his rejection of Judaism? How heavyily under Judaism does your responsibility weigh for imparting the faith? The rejection is somewhat difficult for me, but I think that it is so disturbing because he is so openly hostile. I definitely feel that it is important to pass on the cultural part of Judaism, if not the religious part. I meant it when I said that there are a lot of Jewish atheists - there are even secular humanist synagogues. But he seems to be rejecting it all, and even more than that, he can't seem to be tolerant of any ritual observance. Ironically, he does go a religious school and has not asked to be taken out, since his friends go there and he likes the social life! eema, I think that Val is on the right track. In addition-- I'd ask him (when he's receptive and you can both talk freely... in the car is often a good time/place with teens) if he participates in ALL of the things that he sees his peers/friends doing-- if not, why not? Would he, for example, go to a cultural event such as a Chinese New Year festival? If so, would he feel that he was not being honest if he participated in dancing or traditions associated with special foods? Would he be comfortable as a foreign exchange student experiencing, for example, a midnight mass in a cathedral? Or a Tenebrae service (which is stunningly beautiful, honestly, regardless of one's belief)? Would he remove his shoes to enter a mosque? (Maybe that is a question that is uncomfortable in your house-- I truly don't know.) It may be that as a teen, he is SO familiar with your family's traditions that he cannot see the Shabbat in your own home through that lens of "traveler/tourist" but it is an idea for you both. I think of myself as Jane Goodall of the Pentecostal/Evangelical/Baptists when I'm with my family. That has really helped me to keep my cool with them when they do and say things that offend me (and they do). If he cannot be pleasant on Fridays with your family, and you can't find a way to compromise that feels okay to you both, perhaps you could allow him to make plans with friends for that time? If you do that, please reassure him that you aren't "kicking him out" by any means-- but offering him a way to participate in something meaningful to HIM during time which is meaningful to the rest of the family (for religious reasons). At least that way it isn't something that leaves you both feeling resentful or hurt.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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