Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Recommended Resources Precalculus text for independent study?

Yeah, but our only alternative is for her to have taken the course but without any real instructional support. Several friends of hers have done exactly that. We've been skeptical given the lack of instruction.

Rock and a hard place, that. I agree with you in theory.

We've tried to get a seat at the local CC for her to take more intensively taught math beyond algebra II, but the proximity of the CC to our land grant uni means that the uni uses the CC as their "remedial" math department, and both groups of students (Uni + CC enrollees) have precedence over local high school or homeschool students. NOBODY can get seats in Math 95 or 111-112, and without the latter, she can't get into 251 (Calc I).

Setting aside my theoretical agreement, though-- I do not think that most high school calculus courses adequately substitute for college calculus to begin with. I've seen a lot of those students-- and all about 5-10% of them do not have the math background that the ones who take calculus as college students do.

AP courses are too shallow and test-prep oriented to really teach much, we've found. Sadly. Is DD learning something from AP Physics? Oh, sure she is. But she's interested and she has us as a resource. She gets one hour a week of class time with that teacher. That's it. AP Calculus (and pre-calc, taught by the same person) is "taught" by someone without great English skills, and with little desire to interact with students. Ergo, those courses have an order of magnitude less instruction as compared with physics. The teacher basically grades what they turn in and directs all inquiries to Khan academy or Youtube.

Ha. I'm happy enough with calculus, but I've been becoming aware that I'm delaying DS's learning the material in AP stats, because I don't want to have to support him in it. (I will have to learn it first...) In his case my reasoning that if I put it off another year I probably won't have to support him may be correct :-)


Can't quite tell whether this is, or is not, coming from a misconception that the AOPS course would be Khan academy like? (I don't think anyone's suggested anything Khan-academy like, so I'm a bit confused.) Just in case it is, what I'm talking about is live instructor teaching, not their free online Alcumus. E.g. this.

Obviously I have no direct experience of AOPS courses, but I have heard many good things about them and the instructors certainly have the background.

This is not a personal rccomendation from me, other than maybe you should look into them:
"the joy of calculus dvd great courses" on amazon


this homeschool forum link
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/t...tistics/page__hl__+calculus#entry4956865

says there's an online class mixes calculus and statistics and blends well with AOPS, it's by netmath by the University of Ilinois

AOPS online courses have only about 1.5 h / week live sessions - via special chat online (these work just fine). Others say that instructors are responsive outside the live sessions (i have no first hand experience with this in particular, though). So, if you are looking for more instructor access, this may or may not suit you. Your DD can try a course and cancel within 3 weeks or so with no penalty - best to see firsthand.

AOPS has Calculus course (well, it also has 'Group Theory' course), and judging from what I see in other AOPS courses, I'd guess that it is way more rigorous than regular AP Calculus (granted, the AOPS version does not have the AP label which would be valuable for the HS transcript.)

AOPS Online School is now accredited (by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges), so there should not be a problem with course certification.

"Why Discrete Math Is Important" (on possible math education paths) by David Patrick AOPS http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=discretemath .

I love the great ideas generated in this thread. I truly appreciate all of the thoughtful responses! This is what is so great about this place. Love that.

I definitely wasn't assuming that AOPS didn't offer instruction-- just pointing out that the live instructional piece of things is critical for my DD in particular, and that this is a major weakness to be on the lookout for-- in her particular case-- with anything online.

Still, 1hr a week is more than she'd get out of the school's AP math teacher. Meh. The Lial text looks like the kind of thing that would most appeal to her. Might be time to take a gander at what the local colleges are using for 111/112. She has little to lose by trying independent study for it, because either she'll place out of it (and be able to follow the 3yr honors math track), or she won't (and in that case, maybe she can take something over a summer to get back in synch).

They want their majors taking college calculus IN college. That's typical of the math programs that I know about, so really it's just the one course that she's missing. I'm glad that we've opted to not have her follow the typical accelerated-into-calculus pathway there, because the repetition after having seen it for a year already would have been awful for her.

I guess people plan differently. We plan for our son to take pre-calculus in elementary school, and to go to university at age 17 or 18.

CFK-- actually, that IS the reason for the 3y track in our minds-- to allow for going well beyond the requirements for the BS degree, and to make time for a second major. But we're fine with 4 or even 5y, too. DD definitely has the time.

Their graduates seem to go to top-notch grad programs and have for decades, so it doesn't seem to hinder their ability to go further to start with the college calculus sequence.

I'd definitely agree if my DD were seeming likely to head into theoretical mathematics, but I think she's far more likely to go into statistics/actuarial science or into applied mathematics in another field.

Yes, we definitely all plan differently. We never really had the option to do 'something else' with DD until she was more traditionally college-aged. She's champing at the bit to be in a college setting already.

In looking around at math programs at other well-regarded institutions in the area, most seem to have the calculus sequences as the "expected" coursework for beginning majors during their first year. Not sure why several people have insisted that this is "not good enough" for someone intending to major in mathematics.

Many of these same institutions will NOT permit AP coursework to be used in earning credits for the major. They are used for placement only.

UW Math undergraduate program

UW Undergraduate major in Stats

(Note-- M124 is beginning calc at UW)

UC Berkeley Math Dept

Applied Mathematics major at UC-B
Again-- calculus IS the expected start point.

This was very clearly stated to my daughter when she met with the chair of the math department. There was no disappointment that she hadn't taken calculus (and wouldn't prior to matriculation) only that she was missing the prerequisite course. The mathematician who met her is highly experienced-- was there when I was a student there, in fact-- and seemed VERY keen on my DD after talking with her.

As noted before, the reason why she is missing that course is that her school basically doesn't offer it. They offer am online textbook and youtube, which we feel is inadequate in the extreme. If anything, this decision met with immediate approval that we have good SENSE about these things, since we're less worried about what's on a transcript and hustling DD into upper-division coursework ASAP than we are what's in DD's brain.

I am sort of shocked that anyone would assume that my 13yo is not up to the task of a major in applied mathematics on the basis of "only" starting as a regular freshman-- in calculus. She's not an autodidact, necessarily, but she can be when highly motivated. This is a kid that learned pretty much the entire year of honors algebra I in about a week-- and has retained it. She enjoys teaching math, and is a popular math tutor. She may not be "mathy" in terms of thinking about theory in her free time, but she definitely has the raw material for a math major, which is HER idea, not mine. Her idea because it closes the fewest doors on her multipotentiality up front.


The Honors track wasn't my idea-- that was the department chair's suggestion upon learning that my DD was 13 and a high school junior. The explanation was that this would give her more coursework that would suit her-- in a cross-disciplinary sense. We were thrilled, quite frankly, that this was an individual that immediately recognized DD's multipotentiality and wide interests for what they are.

Sorry if this is sounding a wee bit defensive; I'm feeling a bit like my parenting is being judged here, and I'm not sure why.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd love to hear/discuss (maybe in a new thread) your thoughts about this, 22B. DS9 has taken precalculus, but is a very different character, I think, from HowlerKarma's DD, and I don't see him starting university before 17 or 18 probably. So how to make this work well has been exercising us.