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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,453
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I missed this before. But adding the essay question was suppose to differentiate and still perfect scores. The essay section - very easy to coach - replaced the 'analogies' section (highly correlated with innate intelligence). Net result - not so smart people got to appear smart, i.e., were awarded higher SAT scores than they would have earned on the old test. Regarding Hunter, I have no problem with only the highest test scorers getting in (using the old test) - even if it means that all of the students are Indian or Chinese myself.
Last edited by madeinuk; 05/10/13 03:19 AM.
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I could sent DD to Europe though so all is not lost. Germany, at least doesn't appear to have completely changed its academic stripes. Actually, from what I hear, they've been systematically de-funding the universities for years; departments are closing, there's overcrowding and little access to faculty, and time to degree remains appalling. I wouldn't think this is a great option... DeeDee This is consistent with what I hear from family in Germany. I am keeping an eye on things there because dd12 has German citizenship.
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The main thing that I like about the modern German education system as opposed to the older one is this. Once upon a time, you either went to the 'brainy' high school aka 'gymnasium' and then went to university or you didn't and if still relatively bright you were put on the apprenticeship track. That pretty stark choice and route to higher education was it. Now, you still get the above but those that didn't go to gymnasium still have a track to get into a good university. Firstly, they have to take classes that 'ramp' them up to university entrance level and those that do not make the cut do not get to go the university. Adopting this approach means that the standards at university are maintained and meritocracy is strengthened not diluted.
I have no research to back the following home spun theory up but I cannot help thinking that the (misguided) notion that EVERYONE can go to university regardless of academic merit has been a major contributor to the insane rise in costs for students in this country.
How so? Well, the needless expansion has led to a construction boom on many college campuses - how is this financed? By taking on debt. How is the debt serviced? By raising tuition and raising admissions which means yet more construction is needed ... Interesting. We just had this discussion with my in-laws re: nieces and nephews. My 9 yr. old nephew (who I am sure is at least MG) is not perceived as gifted by his school and is a great athlete who is already saying he would rather not be on the gymnasium track because he wants to hang out with his friends. Dh's family's business is painting, and we have great respect for trades, but it seems sad to me that a kid that young could already be making choices that limit his future. If there is a viable 3rd way I think that makes sense, I am curious to ask their take on it.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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I was referring to Hunter high school. Indian and Chinese natives cannot apply. You have to live in NYC.
Some people say that analogies didn't involve critical thinking skills, but showed well for people who memorized vocabulary lists. You can go either way. But for someone who would have gotten 200 on the essay portion, because I was focused on STEM, but ended up writing for a job and had to take a college English class to learn to write an essay, I disagree. In a world of techno LOL, and whatever other text language exists (I don't text) I think it imperative to weed out the ones that can communicate with written language.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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FWIW, I think the UK university admissions system is a lot more sane than the US one - in particular, admission is overwhelmingly decided on academic merit - and (from talking to many colleagues in both systems) I don't think it's true that students have less access to staff or otherwise have a worse time, at least at good ("Russell group" mostly in the UK) universities. The overseas fees US students would pay typically still look like good value compared with US fees, too. Happy to go into detail if anyone wants.
Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
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Joined: Feb 2010
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/10/us/10iht-letter10.htmlMoney Cuts Both Ways in Education By CHRYSTIA FREELAND | REUTERS May 9, 2013 But it turns out that the children being primed for that race to the top from preschool onward aren’t in such great shape, either.
That is the conclusion of research by Suniya S. Luthar, professor of psychology and education at Columbia University’s Teachers College. Dr. Luthar stumbled upon the subject of troubled rich kids. “I was looking for a comparison group for the inner-city kids,” Dr. Luthar told me. “And we happened to find that substance use, depression and anxiety, particularly among the girls, were much higher than among inner-city kids.”
That accidental discovery set Dr. Luthar on a research path that has prompted her to conclude that the children of privilege are an “at-risk” group. “What we are finding again and again, in upper-middle-class school districts, is the proportion who are struggling are significantly higher than in normative samples,” she said. “Upper-middle-class kids are an at-risk group.”
Dr. Luthar’s findings are directly connected to the stepped-up spending on children’s education at the top that Dr. Kornrich and Dr. Furstenberg document. The title of the paper she is finishing, due to be published in the autumn, is “I Can, Therefore I Must: Fragility in the Upper Middle Class,” and it describes a world in which the opportunities, and therefore the demands, for upper-middle-class children are infinite.
“It is an endless cycle, starting from kindergarten,” Dr. Luthar said. “The difficulty is that you have these enrichment activities. It is almost as if, if you have the opportunity, you must avail yourself of it. The pressure is enormous.” I don't see the cited paper by Luthar at http://www.tc.columbia.edu/academics/index.htm?facid=sl504#papers , but there are papers with similar themes.
"To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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The May SAT scores for the entire country of Korea were cancelled because of widespread cheating. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/09/world/asia/south-korea-exam-scandal/South Korea cheating scandal hits university bids By Dan Rivers, CNN May 10, 2013 It is likely the scandal has tentacles extending across Asia. Brokers in Southeast Asian countries like Thailand are understood to have acquired SAT test papers in advance, selling them for large sums to middle men.
At one of the raided schools in South Korea, a flustered teacher insisted off camera that his Hakwon had done nothing wrong. But at another cramming school, not implicated in the scandal, Vice Principal Byung Yeob Yoon claimed cheating is well known among super ambitious "tiger" parents and their "cub" kids, as they are known here, with tens of thousands of dollars changing hands for the test papers.
"The pressure is there to get the scores. They know there are some avenues where you can achieve higher results, through unsavory or unethical means, and this is a very combustible mixture," he said.
"We get a lot of tiger moms and tiger cubs, and that's why all this hyper competition is happening and that's why people are finding ways to you know skirt the system."
"Just from the grapevine I have heard, tens of thousands of dollars (changes hands) for access to these tests. A lot of parents know where to go, whether it's a subject text or SAT 1."
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Regarding Hunter, I know that only NYC residents may apply and there are a ton of ethnically Indian and Chinese people in NYC, right. I do agree that articulacy is important so my vote would be to put the analogies back in and to keep the essays 
Last edited by madeinuk; 05/10/13 04:33 AM.
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The May SAT scores for the entire country of Korea were cancelled because of widespread cheating. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/09/world/asia/south-korea-exam-scandal/South Korea cheating scandal hits university bids By Dan Rivers, CNN May 10, 2013 It is likely the scandal has tentacles extending across Asia. Brokers in Southeast Asian countries like Thailand are understood to have acquired SAT test papers in advance, selling them for large sums to middle men.
At one of the raided schools in South Korea, a flustered teacher insisted off camera that his Hakwon had done nothing wrong. But at another cramming school, not implicated in the scandal, Vice Principal Byung Yeob Yoon claimed cheating is well known among super ambitious "tiger" parents and their "cub" kids, as they are known here, with tens of thousands of dollars changing hands for the test papers.
"The pressure is there to get the scores. They know there are some avenues where you can achieve higher results, through unsavory or unethical means, and this is a very combustible mixture," he said.
"We get a lot of tiger moms and tiger cubs, and that's why all this hyper competition is happening and that's why people are finding ways to you know skirt the system."
"Just from the grapevine I have heard, tens of thousands of dollars (changes hands) for access to these tests. A lot of parents know where to go, whether it's a subject text or SAT 1." BINGO. (To this and to the article posted above that ID's that same cohort in the US as "at risk") Americans are fooling themselves if they don't think that the exact same problems are endemic in some places here, too. Why on earth would teachers, parents, and students who think that cheating on state tests is "completely justifiable" have any compunction about doing so with other high-stakes exams? Answer-- they don't. It's an arms race. It does society no good-- clearly-- to be offering coveted "elite" educational opportunity to those are aren't (quite) as naturally ABLE, but merely able to appear so... and it certainly does bright/almost-MG kids no good for their parents to push them so that they APPEAR to be HG/HG+. I see this locally-- and it's painful and toxic to see. Truly. Parents here are avid-- maybe even kind of desperate?-- to have a child like our DD. It makes me sad for them, but even sadder for their kids. Admissions tests need to be so difficult that truly, most test-takers never even have the IDEA that they could get a perfect score. Ceilings need to be WAY, WAY higher. Yes, this is partly a selfish thing on my part, but it's also out of concern for a larger societal problem that I say that. I would prefer it if my DD didn't think that "my best" on the SAT was 2400. I'd like it very very well if she had in her head that her "best" was just... well, her best. Not "perfect." Re-norming has instead seemed to do some of the opposite.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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I see this locally-- and it's painful and toxic to see. Truly. Parents here are avid-- maybe even kind of desperate?-- to have a child like our DD. It makes me sad for them, but even sadder for their kids. Silly. That's because your child is clearly inherently superior and therefore worth more as a human being than their children. *Unless* their children are just as awesome as yours. So, that must be the case! Their children *are* as intelligent as yours! Winning!
Last edited by JonLaw; 05/10/13 08:22 AM.
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