Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion go to college or no?

Thanks for the reply HowlerKarma. I agree, education really is important as a tool that helps create this frame around that which we will eventually pursue in our lives. Whatever type of education one receives is almost always useful in more ways than recognized. Like you said, TRAINING is specific and most often internships, from those that I've talked to, are a useless experience when it comes to the real work force. But why then, do companies look for this type of check mark on an application. I think it all comes down to work ethic. There are different types of people in the world. Those that meet educational standards and are considered "smart," and those that are "smart" but also busy themselves with being constantly involved and motivated. This is really general of course, but what I'm getting at is that employers look for several characteristics. Education (usually a college degree and how well one performs), People skills (being able to communicate and come off as a well rounded conversational individual), and work ethic (a major factor companies want in a new hire, from which they look at not how well you did in college but WHAT you did while you were there. This is where internships, clubs, work studies, all come in handy.)

To summarize, I feel that while the TRAINING that you speak of seems like a falsified shift from education to companies simply becoming lazy in hiring pre-trained employees, the employees more often than not still need to become trained for their specific area of work. My sister held an internship with a major contracting company as a civil engineer after her Freshman year of college. Because of her efforts and her people skills, she managed to hold this position for the next 3 years, becoming a paid intern which originally wasn't in the contract. After college when she went to enter the real workforce, she was quickly picked up by another company where she does nothing that applied to her internship. Instead she holds an inspection-type job where she's traveling and representing the company by meeting with people and what not. Basically, her years of internships were not seen as job training, she still went through a period of training with this new company, but the internships were enough experience to show that she has both the work ethic and the people skills to be sought after in the real world.

Also, with a later post you mentioned stressing that high school students do whatever they can to put themselves above others to be attractive to prestigious colleges. This is similar to getting work experience while in school. It's not to gain any sort of training that will help in the real world. It's simply to stay ahead and stand out from the crowd. That's really what it comes down to. College or not, work experience or not, if one can stand above the crowd and distinguish themselves as more useful than other candidates, then that person will be hired.

It's never too late. Even if someone doesn't go to college right out of high school it's never too late to start. It should be a personal choice, as you mentioned, where it's both affordable and sought after enough to get through it. It's a hell of a lot of work, but the personal drive is what makes it worth while. If there's an area where you wish you had more knowledge, go after a four-year study in that area and watch your intellect flourish. If you wish to pursue knowledge that's obtainable outside of a college degree, that's equally as awesome. It's a personal choice for everyone.

Actually, as both a faculty member AND as parent to a high school junior, I feel that this outlook is a VERY serious problem right now.

The problem is that there are way too many people way too concerned with "appearing" to be things that they aren't really. It's an arms race now, and that is a problem. My daughter frequently sees this in her peers-- they ONLY want to sign up for responsibilities that sound lofty and take little-to-no preparation or behind-the-scenes time. It's all about maximizing their resumes. These kids are 14-18yo.

I don't think that is healthy, I don't think it is sustainable, I think that it is BAD for communities, and for that reason alone, my family has opted OUT of the race to elite college admissions. It's not a goal. Period.

I think that high school ought to be a place for more exploration than it currently allows for, thanks to that rat-race mentality of out-competing one's classmates... er... "opponents" (as I think Jon has helpfully termed them ).



The slow and steady, but authentic route still works. There still isn't a substitute for hard work and time devoted to an activity that genuinely matters to you as a person. That is, do things because you feel passionate or intrigued... or because they seem like a good idea for you personally, and don't worry about whether or not they'll look "good" on a vita later.


I understand that the workplace is a marketplace that works this way when demand is outstripped by supply, and I don't really have a problem with employers selecting those candidates that demonstrate the best capacity to add value to a company in one way or another...

but why is this kind of thinking appropriate in COLLEGE admissions, again? (I don't believe that it is appropriate there, actually.) The goal of a college or uni is to educate and shape students into learners and thinkers. The goal of most employers is to make money efficiently. If the argument is that "students should be prepared for the 'real world' as soon as possible," then the entire notion of "education" is flawed to begin with, because it IS about being something else to start with. We accept that children should not have adult responsibilities and should be shielded from some things in the name of education... so when does that end? If it ends at "maturation" then for some individuals, it's not developmentally appropriate until age 25-27. Which is why rental car agencies have some interesting policies about what they consider "adulthood." Actuarial science has some lessons to teach us there. LOL.

I also disagree with your interpretation of the data re: internships. I tend to think that most industrial internships are mostly about identifying those people who: a) will work for nothing (or nearly so), b) have no sense of their own worth or human dignity, and c) have a high pain/tedium tolerance. It's a sorting method, all right. LOL. But that is the cynic in me. Graduate students are often subjected to a similar sieving process, for whatever that is worth.

I also agree that it is never too late to seek education, though. One of my best friends in graduate school was a sixty-something retired county sheriff who returned to school after his kids were gone, and found he loved it so much he went after a PhD when he finished a bachelor's in the subject! I always loved to see returning students in my classes-- they KNEW why they were there, and they were enthusiastic, engaged, and eager.

BigLaw internships were always the precise opposite of what you set forth here.

You get paid a ton of money (about $3K a week these days), endure firm receptions, various sporting events, and parties in your honor, and don't have any true responsibility.

I still have my Ritz-Carlton squishy ball from one of my summer interview flyback interviews.

I should find that squishy ball and sit here and squish it in my office.

I should also mention that the summer associate experience has no relationship to the actual practice of law.

Because the career paths to Greater Glory are only open to certain people at certain times?

Because you end up on the post-industrial scrapheap at age 40, broken and in profound despair, because you don't make the right choices early in your career and get into I-banking, the Right Kind of Consulting, or the correct medical specialty?

Remember parents, it's never too early to point your children in the direction of dermatology!

Here is the story of one poor castoff from BigLaw who now has entered the "Despair Period" of his life.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-disappeared.html

My husband firmly believes in Dental School as The Best Route to All that is Worthwhile and Pleasing.

No, he isn't a dentist. LOL. He just WISHES that he had been.


Or an FBI agent. Or a superhero* of some kind.


*I know, I know-- I thought that, too... He IS! He is "Chemistry Dude!" but he wasn't buying any of my baloney that particular day. Besides, he is well over forty, so he is beyond that post-industrial scrapheap frontier, evidently. I think of this particular scrapheap as being much like the deadfall in the Stephen King's Pet Sematery. A boundary. The self-worth Rubicon... reanimating one into a corporate zombie at all points beyond. Sometimes they come back, you know? LOL.

I've been thinking a lot about student loan debt, the law school graduate glut, vet school loans (salaries are low and yet costs are as high as med school loans), the lack of jobs and alternatives, and the lack of social and safety nets in this country.

Personally, I think we're living in a very cruel time in American history. Not only are people pretty much on their own here in the economy and as we become isolated as individuals, we have a population that's been conditioned to believe that expecting that a government invest in its citizenry, keep its thumb on corporate excess, and provide meaningful safety nets is b-a-a-a-d. This is so wrong, and yet so many people chug down this particular flavor of Kool-Aid without really considering the damage it does.

Charles Blow wrote a column about student debt in the NY Times recently. A commenter named Kevin Rothstein (#2 in Reader Picks) wrote this:


This guy made a really good point. And again, we condition the students to think that getting a degree is their responsibility because it benefits only them, while completely ignoring the fact that educated people who aren't yoked to debt are essential to the survival of this nation. Worse, many of the people leading the charge benefited from affordable college educations themselves. We put all the burden on students; this is crazy. Other countries get this. We don't.

Oops -- did I wander into the wrong forum?

While it would be fun to pit all the Freepers & KOSkids against each other, it just might detract a teensy bit from the overall experience here, which has been reasonably & pleasantly non-partisan over the years.

This thread doesn't feel partisan to me.

As American eras go, this one is really doing pretty well.