Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy middle/high school math saga continues

To recap, DD12 is in 7th grade taking Algebra I and will take Geometry next year in 8th grade. The pacing in Algebra has been slow for her and DD has been cruising through with near perfect scores on everything. I think that she has missed less than 5 problems total since Christmas break. The Algebra teacher is on board with DD needing something more. The two of them talked and decided to see if DD could finish Algebra II this year, working partially over the summer. The teacher thought this might be the best course since she thinks that DD will be bored in Algebra II (her words). The teacher said that she ran this by the high school and DD will not get any high school credit for any of this but they would let her place out of Algebra II.

After reading the "Calculus Trap" article, I decided to run DD's situation by the high school math department. Our local public high school has an IB program which largely accounts for its high ranking. When I talked to the math department, they were decidedly hostile to the idea that DD would complete Algebra II before high school. They basically said that it would mess up her schedule if she did IB and inappropriately place her with upper classmates. They also said that students should take geometry before algebra II. When I asked whether it would be a problem if DD did not do IB but went on the honors track, the person responded that a high achieving kid would have more peers in IB so it would be the appropriate course for her. The main message I came away with was "if you do this, she won't fit into any of our boxes." It left me with a bad feeling about this program for DD.

So, DD and her teacher have come up with a plan that seems iffy with the high school. I'm not sure what, if anything, I should be doing about this. Thoughts?

I read the Calculus Trap article recently, too, and I thought it had a great idea. I'd look to fill the math gap with wonderful chunks of discrete mathematics learning. Probability, number theory, graph theory, predicate logic, etc. and all the accompanying cool puzzles that go with them. I think that under-served area makes future math even more interesting along with providing parallel tools to self-enrich.

(p.s. I abandoned the Calculus route in college and had a math minor with just discrete mathematics classes)

I have a daughter in an AB/AP high school. She is in the IB program for now, as an underclassman. Most, but not all, of the highest achievers DO tend to go the IB route and it requires a lot of work and time commitment, even for the best and brightest. Have you looked into the requirements for the diploma programme yet? It is quite time intensive, and many people do not realize how intensive it is (thesis done mostly over the summer. 120 hours of community service, etc). I know I did not until I attended several meetings at the high school. Anyway, the IB curriculum is inherently less flexible than the honors/AP route. So, it guess it really just all depends upon what sort of experience you want your child to have. Is the math flow really important to you? Is your child's peer group a big deciding factor? I say all of this without judgement. I just know there is a very large drop off in the number of kids who complete the middle years diploma versus those who continue on to the diploma program for various reasons. My daughter has to decide which route she wants to continue on very soon, and all of these things come into play (friends, time commitments, rigor of program, etc). IB and AP courses are very different from my understanding, too. I would look at the totality of the programs in making your decisions, and not just the math piece, though I understand that is very important to you.

Just a warning about IB programs: They are all about stuffing kids into the IB box. And it starts (at least according to the principal of my son's ex-school) with requiring students to be 16 and in 11th grade when starting the diploma program.

Here are my random thoughts, fwiw!

1) Geometry is almost always taken between Algebra I and Algebra II here - did you ask about having her take Geometry this year/summer and start in Algebra II in the fall?

2) Our ds is an extremely math-science oriented kid - when we look at the course offerings he can take if he enrolls in our district's IB diploma program, the offerings in math/science are very limited compared to what he can take in math/science outside of IB. I am not convinced at all (here) that the brightest highest-ability kids are all filtering through the IB program - some of them are (and you have to have a certain IQ/achievement score set to get into it)... but most of the kids I've known who choose IB are more liberal arts, LA/History/Social Studies than they are into math & science. The kids who love math & science tend to choose the honors/AP classes, and there are options for taking college courses for high school credit. Overall there is much more flexibility in scheduling for kids who are *not* in the IB program, and there are just as many NMSF etc outside the IB program as there are within it.

3) Does your dd love math? Is she interested in a math/science direction as she continues through high school/university/career? Does she really want to study Algebra II over the summer?

4) Have you asked if other students have done this same type of acceleration? Did they have to repeat a course when they went to high school?

5) I'm of the mind that (mentioned above) - you meet your child where they are now - if she's cruising through Algebra I and you and her teacher think she'd cruise through Algebra II at an accelerated pace and she *wants* to take it now, I'd go for it and worry about how to deal with it later. OTOH, if this isn't something she's entirely bought into and you don't know 100% for sure that she'd get high school credit for it, I'd probably not have her do it. Although this isn't your school and hopefully wouldn't be your experience, I've known two kids from ds' school (one in Spanish, one in math) who had super-subject-accelerated (ie, more than one grade level) but had to repeat the courses they'd already taken in middle school once they got to high school because they didn't score highly enough on placement tests. They were *SO DANGED BORED* repeating the classes that I think it turned them off in a way that never would have happened with their middle-school boredom over a relatively slow-paced class.

Good luck - I think it's so cool that you have a teacher who recognizes your dd can handle more challenge!

polarbear

ps - I also thought I should admit a few things so you'll see that there is most likely bias in my reply: my ds is after-schooling in high school science which we're hoping he'll be able to get credit for but have no idea for sure that he will, and he is also subject accelerated ahead of the usual acceleration curve in both math and Spanish. Based on our school's track record, I think he'll be ok with getting math credit but don't know about the Spanish. We're basically flying by the seat of our pants at this point and hoping like heck we can find an ok fit for high school! And I'm guessing it's not going to be a traditional high school program. So that's where we're coming from - IB isn't on our radar because we've already tossed that out of the equation as something that's most likely not going to work for ds.

and... I also agree with CFK re "The Calculus Trap".

@mon, thanks for reminding me to deal with the immediate issue. Heck, I have a teacher working with my kid to try and meet her needs right now. Shouldn't I be doing back flips?

I am feeling that high school is looming and that math is just one piece of the problem. DD does well at everything but her two passion areas are music and math. I feel like those are the two areas that I need to make sure the high school will nurture. Our high school also supposedly has a good music program.

@colomom Our high school is huge (1800+ students) with about 200 kids per year who start the IB program. I have my reservations about DD doing IB because of the amount of work and the seeming lack of flexibility. She will have a large say in which path she takes. She will have a lot of outside pressure to do IB. Her friends do not live in our articulation area. If they decide to go to our high school which is considered one of the best in the area, their only option is IB. A lot of kids drop IB before they have to fully commit to the program (I believe that this is between sophomore and junior year). I just get the impression that if you are a smart kid and you are not in IB then you are treated as a second class citizen. Maybe this isn't as big of a deal in junior/senior year when more of the smart kids have dropped out of IB.

Sorry, I crossed posts with CFK and polar bear.
I wasn't directly involved in the conversation between DD and her teacher re the choice to do Algebra II. The teacher told DD that her class will take her about half way through what they cover in Algebra II at the high school. Now that the teacher knows DD and has seen how she thinks about math, the teacher thinks that the repetitive material and pace will not fit DD. I think that this is where the idea came from. The teacher gave DD a couple options for completing the material. One was through an online class offered by the district that would have to be completed by the end of the school year. The other option was to do a hybrid of Khan/Aleks and do a self-study that she could finish over the summer. DD liked this option better because she has a lot of homework and extra curricular activities right now. The teacher did not seem to think that the Algebra II material would be dependent on anything that she would learn in Geometry.

As for how far the high school math goes, I think that they go through BC calculus and have AP statistics. There are off-campus options at the local university or community college but they will take some juggling.

knute, the only thing I'd worry a little bit about re the option to do a hybrid Khan/Aleks is will the high school recognize it for credit or placement? I know that Aleks gives a very straight-forward curriculum which would potentially work well for an independent learner, but I wonder if a self-paced online course offered through an institution that offers credit and a transcript would be more readily accepted? Just thinking out loud... ds used Aleks for his lower-level math and loved the way it worked and was placed out of courses thanks to being able to show the progression of what he'd learned (and how it was tied to our state curriculum).. but for the higher level high school courses it seems like there are more options out there, and other options offer what looks to be more readily acceptable for credit... BUT... I'm not an expert on any of this re getting high school credit and placement.

I am guessing that since you have a teacher suggesting this route, that should lend a great deal of credibility to getting your dd appropriate credit and placement in her high school.

It sounds promising!

polarbear

My question is--

if your child won't get high school credit for the course, is it now (or does it seem likely to be) a state graduation requirement that THAT particular course (or, for that matter, geometry) be on her transcripts?

That's the only thing that I'd be worried about, honestly. The rest is all stuff in the future, and meeting your child's needs now is more important either way.

If she is ready now, and you determine that not having that on her high school transcripts is going to be problematic, figure out how to get it onto those transcripts.

That's all. No way would I permit those kinds of considerations to influence what my child seems to need, though. As others note-- IB aside, there is higher mathematics for your child, and you'll figure it all out when you get there.

Could she do online assessments for the course NEXT year after a summer of self-study?

I'm also not completely convinced (having recently seen both geometry and algebra II, and also having a bird's eye view as DD tutors both pre-alg through geometry) that there isn't any dependence at all on geometry within Algebra II coursework.

There's some. But it'd be pretty easy for a gifted, mathy student to figure it out along the way.

I just looked at the high school graduation requirements on the district website. It says that they require 3 years of math. They do not state what level of math the student needs to take. I guess the only problem would be if she got burned out on math decided that she didn't want to take 3 years in high school at the upper levels.