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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181 |
The first time I ran into an intellectual "peer" I was around 15, I figured out a few years later that he was a sociopath. It was cool to have someone to engage with intellectually and his extreme behaviors and actions were fascinating and we had many interests in common. At the time I considered him a friend.
But sociopaths don't have friends. So, if you have a friend who you think is a sociopath, one of those two assumptions is false. Indeed. This is a lesson that my 13yo DD is (very sadly for her) learning is also the case with a Malignant Narcissist, as well. There are no other people in a Narcissist's world, only those who provide narcissistic supply and those who are "not useful." The latter category is mostly those who have already been used or have no obvious purpose in fulfilling a Narcissist's endless needs for seeing him/herself as singularly amazing in every possible way. I might add that Narcissists of the cerebral variety tend to view younger PG children as either severe threats to be eliminated/crushed or... as the ULTIMATE codependents, if they can just be molded into narcissistic mirrors by destroying personal boundaries and creating an extension of the narcissist. This is accomplished through a sophisticated, slow program of seduction, bewildering manipulative 'gaslighting' and ultimately cycling abandonment/abuse. Neither thing is very healthy or beneficial for the other person. Obviously. This is a gross understatement, by the way. Narcissists are incredibly skillful, manipulative predators. Don't even ask how I know this. Truly. It's a horrible, long, and very painful story. Suffice it to say that I predict that a significant amount of my child's coming year is going to be spent in therapy. Also wanting to add, here, that I am an only child and so is my daughter. Both of us are significantly more altruistic and empathetic than her father (my spouse) who has a sibling. In fact, it was my child's soft boundaries and kindness that made her such an attractive target of someone predatory.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,181 |
Venn, I think that your assessment of companionship needs is probably good-- for you.  Not everyone has the same needs for human companionship. I have, for example, very few close friends aside from my partner. My partners have all been of near-equal intelligence with me. It's a core thing for me to have my copilot in life be able to use his own cognitive abilities and understanding of the world to make sense of my sometimes obscure commentary about things. I know from experience that those of more-nearly average IQ tend to struggle there, and by extension, I struggle with them, too. We both wind up frustrated by encounters in which I spend most of my time backtracking and explaining myself again, and the rest of it impatiently hoping that they'll 'cut the fluff' and get to the point. They don't get my jokes, and I frequently find that I'm patronizing rather than 'enjoying' since it all seems painfully obvious and even trite/repetitive to me. I realize that seems arrogant, but really-- other than pretty superficial, well-defined interactions, we're both better off not trying to do that for long periods of time. They don't enjoy me much either, because none of my jokes or anything make sense, so I come across as 'weird.' I definitely wouldn't have a life-partner that was in that category. We'd both be miserable. It's not that I can't learn anything from someone of even well-below average intellectual capacity. I can and have. I admire principles, empathy, and kindness wherever they reside. I find that my real friends are all people who fit BOTH categories relatively well. Or they aren't what I consider "friends" so much as "acquaintances."
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,856
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,856 |
It occurs to me that I have direct experience and knowledge of a situation in which a parenting style has created not one, but two manipulative children, and I was able to draw a straight line between cause and effect. I didn't think about them at first because they're not nearly teens yet. When I was last interacting with them regularly, they were 8 and 10.
The cause is lack of consistency, and standing of ground by the parents. The kids have learned that "no" doesn't mean "no," it means, "keep trying." They've gotten very used to getting their own way at home. The older boy mostly relies on a brute force hacking method... keep bothering the parents relentlessly, and eventually they placate him to get some peace. The girl uses that method, too, but she also uses more subtle means.
The kids then apply these same principles to their other relationships, with disastrous results. The older boy is a social outcast among his peers, with zero friends. We've witnessed the girl destroying more than one relationship she highly valued... including the one with our DD.
The boy has been identified as gifted, and we see a lot of the traits in him. The girl has not, and we don't see it in her.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,856
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,856 |
I think a good recipe is: - Constant friends: not necessarily highly intelligent or gifted, but kind people who you get along with and can have fun with - Friends who you hang out with once in a while for a deep, engaging, intellectual discussion: the person the original post was about - And if you find a friend who belongs in both categories: they'll probably be your "best friend"! Well, my best friend of 20 years managed to graduate high school without a functional literacy level, so while he was smart enough to work the system to graduate anyway, he's not exactly the person I go to for intellectual conversation. So naturally, this framework isn't what works for me. What we have in common is an outrageous sense of humor. There's a lot of laughing whenever we're around each other. And on the empathy/honesty/loyalty chart, he's off the scale. If I was in trouble and it was in any way possible for him to help me out, he'd be there. I've been friends with his wife even longer, and I was instrumental in bringing the two together in the first place. She's more on my level intellectually... she was in all the AP classes with me, though she did get mad about how easy I made it look. When we're together, an inevitable topic is, "What are you reading?" Humor wise, not so much. When her DH and I are doing what we do, chances are 50/50 she'll either be amused or annoyed, and it's almost guaranteed that she won't be joining in. Back in our school days, her attempts at humor that we found funny were so rare that whenever we truly laughed at something she said, her DH would go, "Huhhh... G made a funny!", which would then be even funnier to us than whatever she'd just said. Like her husband, her empathy/honesty/loyalty factor is off the scale. She is highly selective of who she befriends, but once you're her friend, you're in it for life. If ever I want to know what's going on with our far-flung group from our school days, I only need to call her. So by now, you've spotted the common theme. The empathy/honesty/loyalty factor is a mandatory third category for me. Once that threshold has been met, I'll take fun, intellectual peerness, or any happy blending of the two.
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6 |
I know from experience that those of more-nearly average IQ tend to struggle there, and by extension, I struggle with them, too. We both wind up frustrated by encounters in which I spend most of my time backtracking and explaining myself again, and the rest of it impatiently hoping that they'll 'cut the fluff' and get to the point. They don't get my jokes, and I frequently find that I'm patronizing rather than 'enjoying' since it all seems painfully obvious and even trite/repetitive to me. I realize that seems arrogant, but really-- other than pretty superficial, well-defined interactions, we're both better off not trying to do that for long periods of time. They don't enjoy me much either, because none of my jokes or anything make sense, so I come across as 'weird.' After reading your description, Howler Karma, I think you've explained it much better than I have. I actually agree with everything you've said, but my explanation was much worse haha. I believe I'm in the same situation as you here, which is nice to know I guess I meant: who you referred to as your significant other = what I referred to as my best friends (ie. they are both kind and intellectual). P.S. Being "weird" is a wonderful thing
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6 |
For these two, it really boiled down to insecurity and perfectionism. They wanted to be perfect, to be loved, and so they lied and were defensive regarding anything that suggested to themselves or others that they weren't perfect. They manipulated others as a power play and as a way to show themselves that someone loved them. I like how this is phrased, and I believe this is the case for my friend as well. (I just wrote out an entire paragraph and deleted it because I was basically repeating what you said but phrased more worse hahaha. Kudos to you SAHM! ) I just want to add one quick thing though: Do you think it's bad to feel this strong desire to "help" these kinds of people? I am always careful to not: a) act under the assumption that I'm "better off" than them, and b) get too involved in something such that I end up making myself unhappy. But on the other hand, I consider myself a caring person (oh that feels braggy to type!) and I sometimes just want to show these people (especially peers) that someone cares! That I'm someone who DOESN'T need to be manipulated to like you, who DOESN'T need or expect you to be perfect, who will stick with you no matter what, and that you DON'T have to get all defensive or scared or "put up a front". Opinions? In addition, to those of you who have been discussing parenting, thank you I have been trying not to allow myself to develop a bias towards only-children based off of the one friend that the original post is about. But it's been tough because I mean I can't just go around finding only-children and interviewing them about their childhood/parenting/IQ/etc.! I really appreciate all these points about how important parenting is, especially from people with experience! (ie. actual parents!)
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