Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Understanding WISC IV scores/possible LD's?

We had my now almost 9 year old daughter tested 2 years ago because she was so miserable at school. We finally realized she has some significant separation issues so I don't know that it was the work at school. She always adjusts to school but it takes several months before she is comfortable.

She is in 3rd grade this year and the transition has been easier than in previous years. My daughter is extremely stubborn and is prone to mood swings but only at home.

A test that they do at school, to monitor reading she is always extremely high in ability but below average in comprehension. She doesn't like to read often, where my boys read a lot.

One of my sons has been identified as highly gifted. My other son, is gifted with low working memory. I have learned through my boys you can learn a lot about your child through the WISC IV.

I am trying to figure out what is going on with my daughter possibly looking at these scores. Does anyone have any similar experience?

VCI-116
PRI-141
WMI-110
PSI-91
FSIQ-123
GAI-135

Thanks!

http://www.dyslexia.com/library/silver1.htm

Not sure about interpreting her scores, other than the strong PRI and lower VCI definitely looks like a VS learning profile. This can cause a host of problems with regard to being miserable in the typical school setting, which usually teaches to an auditory/sequential style of learning. Check it out and see if you find that some of the characteristics fit your daughter. If it does, there is a fantastic book titled Upside Down Brilliance that is a great resource to learn how to build on their strengths. I am also guessing that the subtest scores would help with interpreting the results, if you have them.

Thanks, I just looked at the link. It sounds exactly like her. What is interesting is we consulted with Betty from Gifted Development years ago about ds1. She thought he was a visual spatial learner as well. He didn't exhibit as many of the criteria. I completely forgot about it until you mentioned it.

Even as a layperson, I've noticed that all roads seem to lead back to Linda Silverman with this idea of visual-spatial learning. She seems to have built her name on this concept, but as far as I know it's never been validated by a solid body of independent research, just as the idea of learning styles in general isn't well-supported by research. I'd therefore read anecdotes about this stuff with interest, but still take it all with a grain of salt, especially assertions of supposed fact.

Instead of reading books about an unproven idea, and acting based on laypeople's advice from a few test scores, I'd follow up with your tester and other professionals to find out more. Specifically regarding this visual-spatial stuff, I'd want to get at least an opinion from someone who's not connected to the Gifted Development Center or Linda Silverman, who is director of the GDC. It's not that I think they're bad for advice in general on giftedness, it's that I suspect that they may have tunnel vision on this visual-spatial learner concept.

If your child has sensory or learning issues, I think it's necessary to learn further about them outside of this visual-spatial learner paradigm. You don't want learning disabilities or other disorders to be dismissed as just symptoms of someone being a "visual-spatial learner".

My DS11 has an almost identical testing profile to your DD. He is dysgraphic/ADHD. Your DD's profile is consistent with a number of different LDs or with nothing at all. She could just have a spiky profile with a processing speed bottleneck and very high non-verbal abilities.

If I were you I would follow up with achievement testing. Achievement testing (WIAT or Woodcock-Johnson) will highlight any areas where your DD's learning achievement significantly diverges from her abilities. Her reluctance to read could indicate dyslexia/stealth dyslexia or a visual challenge. Does she have any other areas of difficulty academically?

I have read quite a bit in the area of visual-spatial learners. I don't have an opinion on whether this is valid or not but the characteristics certainly do match my DS exactly. The described characteristics of a visual-spatial learner also share quite a bit of overlap with various LDs such as dysgraphia, dyslexia and ADHD so more investigation is certainly warranted, as lucounu notes.

I am also surprised at lucounu's challenge (that I have seen in other threads as well) to learning styles because this philosophy is all the rage in education circles right now. I have learned after 7 years of having kids in school that because an idea is in educational vogue does not make it at all valid. However, I would like to think that educators are not talking straight out of the, um, air with this. That's a pretty uncomfortable thought. I also don't want to highjack this thread. Care to share your insights in another thread lucounu? I would love to see this discussed more.

Good luck with your DD mommyto3. I would continue to investigate if I were you.

I tend to side with lucounu on this one. My DD fits the VSL description perfectly. Teaching her spelling using a method described on one of the various Silverman/VSL sites had a profound effect on her spelling, and also possibly on her auditory working memory (because she seems to have learned to map her auditory input to her far stronger visual memory). So I get that the description can fit and some of the techniques can be extremely useful. But the truth of my daughter is that she has ADD, CAPD and dyslexia and most likely Aspergers. To my mind describing gifted children with quirks as "Visual Spatial Learners" and not looking further is doing them a disservice. It might sound nicer, but actually knowing exactly how one's child is wired differently is far more useful than saying "Oh she's a visual spatial learner..."

Yes! The "learning style" business lumps too many people together into one category, concealing rather than revealing what's really going on.

DeeDee

Thanks, fwtxmom. I don't even know what dsygraphic is. I have thought possible ADD or ADHD, from time to time. She is high energy. She has a handle of the criteria but then she has a fantastic memory and is has none of the typical memory/attention characteristics.

Her grades are great. I do think that the idea of a achievement test would help to see if there are any gaps.

She is a perfectionistic and the tester thought she "burned out on testing". Started strong and fizzled.

Thanks!

I found this Wikipedia article on the subject.

I think DeeDee's lumping comment hits the nail on the head. It might be harmless fun to re-label already described disorders with a new aggregate label, if it didn't run the risk of being widely adopted by laypeople, muddying the waters and increasing the chance of some children remaining with problems unidentified. I don't doubt that some of the mentioned VSL coping strategies have helped some children to some degree, but I'm sure that correct treatment of the underlying issues would work as well or better.

mommyto3, no one here on this board is going to be able to know definitively from these WISC scores if there is an LD or not - but what we can tell you is the degree of scatter combined with the difficulties you've noted (reading comprehension not matching ability and mood swings at home) are reason enough to have another look at the possibility of an LD.

The first thing I would recommend doing is taking a second look at the set of scores you have - it sounds like there is reason to doubt some of them due to test fatigue. Is there any detail in the report you have or can you talk to the testing psych or get a copy of the psych's full report in order to see if you can determine which tests might have doubtful results?

The next thing I'd do (and I'm not a professional, just a mom of two 2e kids with LDs) - I'd go back for a full neuropsych eval if you can. That would include new ability testing + achievement testing as well as possibly further testing to determine why the processing speed score is relatively low. I'd also want a dyslexia screen. I personally would go for private testing rather than through the school if you can afford it or if your insurance will cover it, simply because most of us have found that private testing provides more thorough testing and you as the parent get more info re what is up with the results and how to help support your child's needs.

Re VSL, when my 2e ds12 was in 2nd grade and first struggling in school, his teacher was convinced he had ADHD and described how he was always staring off into space when she was lecturing in class and how he refused to complete his classwork etc. I hadn't ever spent any time at all online researching giftedness or anything at that point, but my dh and I knew from living with him that our ds was extremely bright. When his teacher started complaining about his behaviors in class, and I started googling for possible answers, it was so easy to find the GDC site and the VSL info from Linda Silverman, and it's such a broad swath of a description that it was easy for us to think that it described our ds - and that was it.

Many years later I can tell you that yes, our ds is a visual *thinker* and fits the description of a VSL. He also has scored way up in the sky-high on the CTY spatial test battery. When he describes how he thinks, he is obviously a visual thinker. There's no question about any of that. BUT - he's also a kid with a very real learning disability that is evidenced by extreme scatter on WISC scores similar to what you're seeing. So my recommendation is to put the VSL info in your back pocket and save it for later. Maybe your dd is a visual spatial learner, but it sounds like there is something else going on that needs to be looked into.

Also, re the mood swings at home but not at school - both of my 2e kiddos have always been able to hold their emotions in check at school (at least it looks that way from the outside) - but they were also holding a lot of anxiety inside quietly throughout the school day. When my ds12 was in early elementary, prior to diagnosis, he used to come home and throw major tantrums. Eventually he began having severe anxiety and panic attacks and we never *ever* realized until after he was diagnosed and had accommodations that his severe anxiety was all related to spending the day in the classroom unable to do the work he was given. My dd8 who has a challenge that impacted her ability to learn to read had a very similar experience. Even my dd10, who does not have an LD but who had an undiagnosed vision disorder as a young elementary student was a model student in school but had wild mood swings at home before we understood what was up with her vision.

Best wishes,

polarbear