Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Certainty among educators

Bingo. I've talked and talked and talked to our national charter organization about this very point for YEARS. The major problem with their assessments is that they aren't being written by subject experts-- but by "educational" ones who have "background" in the subject. That misses nuance that genuine subject experts catch in an instant, and also ferrets out those little problems that dog GT kids like crazy in curricula (ambiguities, inconsistencies, conceptual errors when viewed from a higher level of understanding, etc).

This is why nationally normed exams in subject areas are NOT written by subject educators but instead by subject experts.

I know, I know... I will just tuck my soapbox away now...

There really isn't a good way to fight this. As Bostonian noted, the options are pretty bleak either way-- they chose to go outside the system for authentic learning whilst (nominally) keeping the child in on-level instruction, and we chose to push for what acceleration they WOULD give us (and we pushed kinda hard, actually)...

So we fight to get DD to do work which at least occasionally is actually a waste of her time... (and really, how on earth do you answer such an assertion when both you and your child know that it is TRUE??) and have her work almost at her ability level. Bostonian's family, they have authentic work... but it also requires a child who is willing to 'phone it in' at school, on the compliance side.

I'm not sure which is better. It probably depends on the child. Knowing our DD is what led us to go this route rather than forcing her to submit to ANY amount of material that is 2-5 years below her readiness level. The reason is her response to doing such tasks-- abject refusal and total shutdown. In her case, we know from experience that there's no reasoning with her in this particular venue re: material that she finds an insulting waste of her time and energy. She would really and truly rather fight and do NOTHING than be treated like a trained seal for even a short period of time.
Bostonian's route-- taken with my DD in particular-- could only lead to an ODD diagnosis, frankly.

Enrichment is a great option for some kids. But not all of them are willing to put up with the mind-numbing, remedial portion of things alongside it.

Val, I also wonder if rigidity is related to a lack of conceptual background in the subject. That seems to be something I've noticed with my DD's teachers-- the ones that are most rigid seem to have the most superficial understanding of the material themselves. It makes them really uncomfortable to think outside the lines.

I actually think you should push back hard because you are not asking for "individual" subject acceleration, which may require all kinds of crazy paperwork signed by multi-level administrators (like in our district). You are simply and reasonably requesting that your DD be placed in the top tier of a three-tier math hierarchy that is already in place.

It would be helpful to provide something along the lines of the ALEKS state standards list. I think that DS' school was more impressed by the ALEKS document showing 100% mastery on the 8th grade standards for our state then the EXPLORE scores comparable to top-performing 8th graders.

Perhaps you can request a trial with the top math group and counsel DD to double-check her work?

I pushed back today. Yesterday she came home with two- or three-step word problems requiring her to work backwards. They were reasonable. Today she came home with "Joey has 3 buckets of paint. Each one has three gallons. How many gallons of paint does he have?" I sent a polite email to her teacher saying that I was concerned about how trivially easy the problems were. If things don't improve, I'll push hard at the next conference. In the meantime, she asked to do algebra after finishing all her homework, so we did.

When the concept of moving her up was discussed, I was told that the other kids were "superior" to her in this respect and that she "really needs that extra time." ??

I've read the thread (didn't originally realize it was yours) and it sounds like a nightmare, but oh so familiar. We had one second grade teacher claim that DS couldn't do word problems at all, only to find out that she was grading them incorrectly. And starting in kindergarten, we heard the "right where he needs to be" line, which thankfully dwindled and disappeared over time. In DS's fourth grade math class, all the word problems have been extremely basic, like your Joey problem.

Really needs that extra time FOR WHAT PURPOSE, exactly?

Not to hijack, but DD is just being introduced to writing algebraic expressions for the first times (realish ones, like figuring out that a word problem can be expressed as x = (y + 8) /2) and it's like the lights went on behind her eyes. Not only did she catch on instantly, but you can see how it excites her. I've been wondering if my opinion of her math skills was wrong. She's doing low-A work one grade ahead (basically, she's de facto skipped in math) but seems relatively challenged, albeit mainly by all the blah blah rule blah previously discussed. Then I see how incredibly easy THAT was for her, and I don't know.

Just a side note on the conversation about math textbooks and teachers. I have worked with math book writers. And with the ones I worked there were two groups of experts involved - math education professors (the ones who teach future teachers how to teach math) and math professors. Majority of math education professors have not been in classrooms themselves for decades, but they still teach how to teach our kids and write textbooks for our children. However, I believe that the largest issue we are dealing is that there is no coherence in our educational system, the curriculum that teacher education program teach to future teachers does not align with the curriculum they will be expected to teach. And how could it be aligned, if states, districts, schools within districts have such a varied curriculums. Then the curriculum teachers are expected to teach does not align with any textbook 100%. In addition, our elementary school teachers are not math teachers, they may have minored in math, but they are not specialists. High school teachers are supposed to be, but what about middle school teachers? Research shows that the middle school teachers are just really left out, somewhat forgotten by the teacher preparation programs. If somebody is interested there is a report available online "Breaking the Cycle International Comparison of U.S. Mathematics Teacher Preparation.", I think the Executive Summary touches on many issues discussed here. http://www.educ.msu.edu/content/sites/usteds/documents/Breaking-the-Cycle.pdf

I am reading "Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics" by Liping Ma. I would highly recommend it for anyone who is dissatisfied with their child's elementary math education. I haven't finished it but the thesis seems to be that when teachers don't have a profound understanding of fundamental mathematics they can't teach it. Shocking, I know.

In the first chapter Dr. Ma points out some of the mathematical errors American teachers inject into simple substitution with regrouping. In a problem like 52-29 they tell kids that "You can't subtract 9 from 2" (which is wrong) or "The 2 has to borrow from his next door neighbor 5" (as if they are two separate numbers and not part of a whole.)

Anyway, to OP's point, it is difficult for a teacher who does not understand or is actually afraid of math to assess a child's math ability. I think that is why many responding parents have seen teachers stubbornly adhere to their curriculum despite poor writing, mistakes or clear indications that a child is ready for more. Many elementary teachers can't go outside the recipe that the curriculum provides because they lack the mathematical training and understanding to do so.

I think this also explains the (to me) baffling popularity of reform curricula like Everyday Math and Investigations. The curriculum packages the teaching of "deep understanding of math concepts" into bite-sized pieces, games and worksheets. The teachers don't really have to understand the math concepts profoundly. They just execute the canned curriculum that somehow teaches concepts deeply all on its own. It's genius marketing by the textbook company.

Very few HS math teachers have taken math beyond calculus. Most have zero interest in number theory or Euclid's Elements. And the situation gets worse in Middle School. And it is abysmal in elementary school.

The very top school districts have true specialists but most other schools do not.

I'd settle for a fourth grade teacher with a solid knowledge of algebra I and geometry. In fact, I'd be thrilled.