Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Will discipline break a child's spirit?

The most miserable, brooding, entitled, dissatisfied, and unmotivated clients I see in my practice are precisely the ones whose spirits remained "unbroken". More self -pitying and emotionally-crippled then any of the teerns I've seen from physically abusive families, parental death, foster care, or even war-torn countries.

It is a terrible form abuse to send a child into the world ill-equipped to tolerate frustration, consequence, compromise, or understand that their welfare is largely inconsequential to most. The world is a cruel teacher. I will arm my kids accordingly with love, structure and expectations.

I'm with Daytripper...

In our house, disputes such as this would be counted (a la 123 magic) for both kids. That resolves 99% of the disputes here. The leftover 1% may be taken up with the local governing body (aka: mom).

Creating an outcome that will never happen in reality is setting a child up for some serious disappointments and hard knocks.

I can promise you no boss is going to go ask another company if there is a new Mac lying around that he can give the disappointed co-worker who didn't get the one new Mac that came into the company.

I would've taken the ball away from both of them and told them to figure out how to get along or I would have some chores they both could do so they could be productive while getting out all that energy, My garden isn't nearly as well weeded as it was when I had bickering kids at home.

Discipline teaches a child self restraint, self denial, and tolerance, when we deprive our kids of opportunities to practice those skills, we help set them up for being disliked by their peers, unhappy in their jobs and miserable spouses.

Can you tell this one is black and white for me?

Not weighing in on the discussion but just had to chuckle at this becasue I swear this scenario is played out in my house with my two boys almost every day. LOL. I admit that I have used similar way to deal with it (not borrowing - b/c really how embarassing, LOL - but actually buying another ball ) not for any breaking spirit reasons but just to keep the peace and just because I can't take it anymore. Unfortunately, obtaining another ball (or whatever said item at issue is) usually does not solve the problem. The two of them just move on to something else to have the exact same fight over. Somedays I am on top of my game and I effectively referee while teaching a lesson in problem solving and keeping peace. Other days - not so much. Both older DS and I have recently realized that younger DS lately pulls the "MY BALL" stunt described above just to antogonize. A few minutes of pretending to not be interested in said ball (or whatever toy) usually means younger DS moves on to doing something else abandoning the ball he insisted he couldn't bear to part with. And older DS smiles knowingly at me and realizes leassons of patience and reverse psychology. LOL. This happened just tonight and DS 7 remarked "Hmmm, this is a VERY effective method!" My other way of dealing with it? Keep the seperate - Older Ds goes to aftercare at school !

It's interesting to read the replies. I think the mom in question handled it terribly, but I DO think that the mom should step in. I don't think that a 5-year old necessarily knows how to interact, and I also don't think that an older sibling who picks up a ball lying around should be forced into trying to "work it out" (what's to work out?). I would have stepped in to say briefly, "You weren't using this. There's no good reason that your sister can't use it for baseball. If you can't respond without yelling or whining, you need to go to your room until you calm down." End of discussion. In our house, there are no toys that are off limits to siblings (and I have four kids). It's just weird to me. It's never come up, honestly, never in all our years (and two are grown). It's not a rule; my kids just aren't that possessive. My boys share a room and a playroom, so they pretty much play together. We had this issue with the girls and makeup/clothes as teenagers, and then we set rules - and we had to get pretty specific (different rules for consumables like makeup and checking first that jewelry/clothes won't be worn the next day by the owner). Overall though, I think the good part of having four kids is that they pretty much learn early to share. And I don't put up with whining and I don't put up with it's not fair. We run a commie household- kids get what they need (not what their sibling gets) and they help as they are able (and if their sibling is doing homework and can't do dishes, sorry kiddo, you're up).
I'm a total AP mom - I nursed longterm, I coslept, I don't use corporal punishment, but this isn't about AP, this is about whiny, indulged kids. They are going to have a very hard time in school one day, not to mention in the work force!

Momtofour...

It is surprising how easily little ones can learn to compromise. I have a ds6 and dd2...admittedly, they get along really quite well. But we have a lot of possession issues especially with my dd2 who thinks everything is hers the moment my ds lays claim. By "counting" (which is really just giving the warning "figure this out or I will"), I don't take sides. Sometimes ds is the instigator, sometimes dd - but often it's both of them antagonizing one another. And boy do they LOVE to play the victim! I think a parent should actively intervene when there is a bullying issue with siblings - but so often kids feel resentful of how parents "side" with the youngest (for example)...and the parent's intervening just leads to MORE resentment and "sneaky" behavior. But of course, not all kids benefit from the same parenting interventions - just wanted to share our experience.

Yeah, I'm AP (real AP? lol not wacko just instinct and evidence based practice) and I'd definitely get involved depending on the kids' ages. some kids are just SO like that--you want it so now I NEED it. Getting down and calmly but firmly explaining, distracting, asking them to go blow off steam on their own, all good. Even setting a timer for turn taking. Most of the time a quick start if this leads to my kids working it out very easily. DD5 is a super sharer and DS1 is more jealous but the regular modeling IS helping. I definitely see very permissive parenting at times, sometimes by parents who just let it happen, who just aren't "with it," and yes some who are all "oh he's so spirited" wooza wooza about it all. I think there's something to not being overly controlling but kids should be guided!

Yet another self-defining AP parent here who thinks the scenario in the OP crazy and disapproves of that strategy being associated with AP. (This actually seems like rather an odd connection - I wonder whether Iucounu was conflating AP and UC, unconditional parenting? UC is also interesting and influential on me, and there's a naive interpretation of it that might lead to this scenario, so that would make sense. They're different things though.)

I see attachment parenting as being about honouring needs and wants and feelings - but part of that is about distinguishing those things from one another, and a lot of it is about recognising that everyone has them! As I have a singleton I have only theoretical ideas about how to deal with sibling issues, but I do of course deal with situations where DS's needs/wants conflict with mine or DH's or someone else's all the time.

I'd certainly let child S play with something that wasn't the exclusive property of child E and wasn't being used by E at the time, even if E didn't like it. I'd be interested in why E didn't want S to use it, and in an ideal world would talk about that with her (while S went off with it!), though. One of the most helpful ideas I've accrued from somewhere (probably my own therapy, come to think of it :-) is that all feelings should be acceptable: the place to intervene is where you decide how to express or act on the feeling. Far more helpful to say to yourself "I feel as though I don't want anyone else to play with that - but actually there's no reason she shouldn't, so I won't object" than to say "I shouldn't feel that". Tricky with a 5yo, but even then, one can criticise the behaviour rather than the feeling.

I agree with the responses saying that teaching kids rules and basic respect is very important and don't have anything to add to that except gosh sometimes I get tired of reinforcing the same stuff over and over again. But I know that over time it has had results, plus what else are you going to do, give up and just let them have at each other??

But to the other point, I think that what could 'break a kid's spirit' is arbitrary and/or unexpected punishments. I had this a lot when I was growing up and it really distorted my view of the world as well as contributing to depression. When the rules are clear and enforced as promptly and fairly as possible, with reasonable consequences, I think it is ultimately a win/win for everyone. Would you really want to be around your own kid when they're all grown up if they keep resolving disagreements by brute force?

The use of brute force is always a choice, in any event.

Every time you engage with others, you are free to consciously choose whether you want to engage in pro-social behavior or even if you want to consider the other person as someone who is real.

Nothing ever stops anyone from choosing to believe that they are the only real thing in existence and that everything else is shadow.

"Solipsism (i/ˈsɒlɨpsɪzəm/) is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. As such it is the only epistemological position that, by its own postulate, is both irrefutable and yet indefensible in the same manner."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism