Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Saxon math - what to do?

ggoebel: Thanks for the suggestion about establishing level of performance and/or mastery. This is actually where I think I will be going. I'm waiting to here from the teacher as to when is a good time to observe. After that, I think I will ask if son can take some of the mastery tests from the end of the curriculum.

When I spoke with the consultant at Saxon she suggested that I ask to review the whole curriculum and then see if son could pass some of the assessments at the end of the curriculum. She emphasized how the assessments are not cumulative, often repetitive and there is not just one assessment that would give us an idea of mastery. But I think if we could at least give son some assessments for material that hasn't been taught yet then the math teacher would start to understand what I mean. And you are right, I can't really ask them to teach at his level if we don't really know what level that is.

I don't think he is ready for Aleks yet, but will keep it in my toolbox as I'm sure it will come in handy later! Meantime, he is doing 1st to 2nd grade math computer games and workbooks at home. And we do lots of enrichment with games and what I call "functional math." So he is learning in spite of attending school!

If a teacher isn't assessing where a child is at both before and after instruction, than there is no way to measure the appropriateness or effectiveness of that instruction. It makes no sense to assume that children know nothing about a subject before it is presented. Children after all do not live in a vacuum.

Our daughter started ALEKS at LV-3 in second grade. I didn't realize that ALEKS doesn't offer courses for Kindergarten through 2nd grade. Sorry, I didn't realize I was making an inappropriate suggestion.

Before EPGY and ALEKS we did much the same thing that you're doing. I.e. workbooks and computer games.

You might want to check out the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Young-Children-Reinvent-Arithmetic-Implications/dp/0807739049

It describes the cognitive development of arithmetic in early primary grades. I've found the book to be instrumental in figuring out where our children are at developmentally and very helpful in determining what kind of activities and games will be most rewarding. It was interesting to read that the conceptual building blocks for arithmetic are arrived at by almost all children in all countries and educational environments (or lack thereof) at essentially the same chronological age.

Reading all these threads and posts, it is easy to get jaded and/or apathetic. But it probably bares mentioning that people who are having good experiences with gifted education aren't likely to be hanging out on forums like this one.

It is easy to fall into an adversarial mode where you see yourself as providing opportunties for your child to learn despite or in spite of school... But it isn't very productive.

That isn't to say that you should ignore real problems. There is a tendency of some teachers to think that "gifted" children are all gifted across the board. Another common theme seems to be written or unwritten policies that discourage identification of children before 3rd grade.

I think it is important to remember that most teachers got into teaching because they care. Many who wanted to teach children find themselves instead teaching inflexible curriculums and how to take tests. Many burn out. And many become entrenched and inflexible in their ways.

If you look at the numbers, your average teacher with class sizes between 20-25 students would only encounter a gifted child once every 4 or 5 years. Is it any surprise that they're ill prepared to meet gifted childrens' needs? Few teachers have any significant training in special or gifted education.

If you want to be a good advocate for your children, then you're going to have to educate yourself first, and then educate the educators. However, as an advocate for your child in a very large and established education system, if you don't have the good will of your child's teacher you might as well pack up and go home.

Good advice, ggoebel. I'm hoping that I have already followed it by establishing a working relationship with his teachers.

I noticed that ALEKS offers a free 48 hour trial session. So I think that I will try that this weekend, just to see what level he is at, in case he might even be close to being able to use that as a supplement.

I'm going in to the math class on Thursday this week to observe for awhile. And I want to ask about looking at the curriculum. Hoping to look ahead and perhaps get a feel for whether this years curriculum is going to challenge him at all. I observe children in classrooms regularly as part of my job, so I know what I'm looking for as an observer. I just hope that I can be objective as the parent! And I promised son that I wouldn't even say HI to him, because he was at first worried that the other kids would laugh at him, having his mom there. I have concerns about his social/peer interaction as well as the academics. So I hope it will be an enlightening and reassuring experience all around.

Sounds like a plan Debbie. You may be a bit biased, but isn't it your place to a wee bit biased?
You've got me curious about what your paid work is, care to detail?
Trintiy

Oh sure, I can tell you what I do!
I'm an Occupational Therapist. Have been for 17 years. I currently work in an outpatient hospital setting (rural area) so I treat anyone who walks through the door and needs OT. But my experience lies primarily in neuro-rehab and pediatrics. I'm SI certified now and have a long background with school re-entry for kids with head trauma. So I have spent a lot of time in the classrooms as an observer/consultant/private clinician, helping school staff with IEPs, accomodations, etc. I've also taken some child advocacy workshops related to disability in general. My current pediatric caseload is mostly kids on the autism spectrum, ADHD, LD, developmental delays, etc. I do lots of SI based treatment these days.

I observed for 30 minutes in the class today. It was interesting. And I'm so glad I did it. Thanks to Trinity for putting the bug in me to go see for myself!

First of all, the teacher had asked that the principal sit in on the observation with me. I'm guessing that was a defensive move, but I really wasn't headed in to bash her or anything! It's the curriculum I'm more worried about. But I was glad that the principal saw what I saw.

My first response was that if I didn't know him I would pull him out for an OT evaluation! He was so physically active! He clearly stood out as different from the other 12 kids there, moving about in his place during circle, not sitting still at his desk, etc. He was rolling his head around, changing position, putting his arms over his head, and on and on.

But then when I considered the topic of the day (10 pennies equals one dime) I realized why he was like that. HE IS BORED!!!!
When they were doing the worksheet together as a class, it was clear that he was NOT working at the same speed. He had finished his sheet long before the teacher got to #3!

So, afterwards, the principal suggested that we all meet so we can compare where the teachers see him academically and socially and as a "whole child" and where we see him as parents. I tried to explain tactfully that at home he is doing math at a higher level. I told him how we see DS escalate with physical activity when he is not involved in something but that he can sit stock still in a chair for 3 hours doing his 2nd-3rd grade math missions computer game! I suggested that DS wasn't "cognitively engaged" during math! Like that euphemism?!

So, principal suggested that we meet before Christmas break to review his performance and discuss any changes that might need to be made. I'll keep you posted and ask for advice as needed!

Oh Debbie,
I'm so glad you got to see it in action. I bet you barely recognised your own child! I'm glad the principle was there also! Remind me, is this a public or independent school?

Ok - Here's your homework between now and the meeting. Try to assess your child in three distict areas of school performance: Skills, Knowledge Base, and Critical Thinking.
If you school has a website or a brochure, get access to the "scope and sequence" for the grade levels. Look at the grade level the child is in, and the next few grade levels. Put a S next to the Skills, K next to the information the child is suppposed to learn, and a C next to the integrative type products that would demonstrate critical thinking the child is supposed to achieve.

Then next to each S, K or C, try to figure out how you can demonstrate where the child is in contrast to the school's teaching goals.

Here are some examples:
1) Skills - find those Saxon end of year tests, and have him fill them out, for the next few grade levels, with camcorder rolling if possible. You want them to SEE how quickly he moves along. Figure out which Math fact he has automatisity on. Write it down.
Get handwriting samples, both 1st draft and final product type writing, printing and cursive. Get permission to show samples to the teachers and get a feel for where you child is.
Reading Comprehension - there are cheap internet reading assesments ((Help - someone get a link?)) Or try and find the lexile number of the books your child reads at home, by googling Lexile and the book's title. Make a list of 5 books your child has read lately and their lexiles.
Social Skills - see if you can get some observations of your child on playdates with older children of various ages. Again, if you can get it on tape, that's the best, but it's tricky.

Knowledge - See what topics are being covered in Social Studies and Science. Ask child to write, type or dictate what they know about the covered topics. Take your time, have fun.

Critical thinking - I'm foggiest about this one. If you have the IQ/WJ/ or Talent search tests that can help. Camcorder your child talking about a "unit studies" type project or collection they have at home. Keep a log of "profound" things they say around the house. Ask them to make a sample "public service announcement" about a topic that interest them. ((Help - any free or cheap internet assesments?))

Try your best to assign grade levels to all these various topics. Get an overall picture of what your child is ready to learn. Get on tape what your child looks like when you teach something in the correct "readiness" level.

This sounds like a tall order. I believe that it will pay off in terms of your confidence to guide the school, and minimize mistakes that will cost your child emotionally. It's great when the school steps forward and offers to do their share, but in the end, the ultimate responsibility rests squarely on our shoulders. Not fair or appealing, perhaps, but come here for support and vent when it feels like "too" much. Don't do any of it until you can think of a way to make the next part fun.

Readiness! Our new watchword!
Love and More Love (because that's what it takes)
Trinity

P.S. Don't use computer games as an example - IMHesperience, school hear "computer games" and stop thinking. ADHD bell go off. "Sure, all kids love computer games, that doesn't translate into "inclass behavior."

they do have a point.

Thanks for all the advice and direction. I'm not sure I can do all that before this meeting, but at least on the math front I can.

And you may be right about the computer games thing. Although he has to have math fact knowledge for this one, I see your point. I guess I'll bring in the math workbook that he picks up on his own and focuses independently doing up to 12 pages at a time in!

Yesss - That's much more like what the teachers want to see. LOL - that was a lot of advice - but it's more of a "big picture" where everylittle bit helps, and stands on it's own. I'd go after the reading/lexiles piece next. It's concrete and easy to collect.