Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC-IV Results and Attitude

Hi all,

Some of you might remember the CogAT/Nxxt Steps thread from a couple of months ago for our DS8 (grade 2, parochial school). He is having behavior issues at school despite testing well on his ITBS and CogAT (140 SAS, Profile 9A). So we had him tested independently by a psychologist. His WISC-IV GAI was 132 but his coding score was very low (6) and he is working with the psychologist on this. I’ve seen mention of low coding scores and dysgraphia but his penmanship is excellent.

The psychologists indicated that his behavior issues at school are due to his “superior intelligence” (their term, not ours) and not due to any neurological dysfunction (ADHD, etc.) or learning disability. They recommended several things for the school to implement for him (curriculum compaction, etc.). The school does not have any GATE curriculum but the teacher is willing to work with us on the recommendations. But the larger issue continues to be his behavior and attitude at school.

He closely resembles “The Challenging” Type II profile listed here: http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10114.aspx

The first of his issues (not sure if it’s an issue, really) is that he reads constantly, almost to the exclusion of everything else. He devours any and all reading materials he finds (books, newspapers, magazine articles, even betting lines on professional sports which he then rates for accuracy). The school uses the AR (Accelerated Reader) system (tests for books with level/point goals each quarter). He is set to amass more points this quarter than many kids in his class get in two full years in the system. He devours reading material at a furious pace. However, this is also one of his downfalls – he reads almost to the exclusion of everything else. He does very well at all his other subjects but falls behind because he reads when he is supposed to be writing, or doing math (which he doesn’t particularly like even though he is a wiz at it), etc. He has no problem catching up quickly but he will have a pile of unfinished work stuffed in his desk. He is indifferent when it comes to finishing regular schoolwork. A kind of “I’ll do it when I feel like doing it” attitude.

His other issue is poor self-control. He is in constant trouble for talking (he is a chatterbox), bothering his classmates when they are working, willfully ignoring instructions, lacking tact with his classmates, sarcastic comments, defiance with his teacher, etc. E.G. She’ll ask him to take his feet off the desk and he’ll remove just one foot. She’ll take a book away during lecture time and he’ll immediately pull out another one and keep reading. It’s almost gamesmanship. She’s clearly very frustrated with him, as are we. Also, FWIW, he doesn’t have any social difficulties and is well-liked and very outgoing with friends all over the school in multiple grades.

So the question is what to do with him next year. On the one hand, he really does need to be with kids of similar ability. I think he’s convinced himself that he’s smart enough to basically do what he wants at school, even if he walks a fine line between being just enough trouble to keep his day "interesting" but not enough that he gets sent to the principal’s office (at least not regularly). I think (hope) if he’s surrounded by similar kids next year, he’d do well.

The psychologist thinks he'd do very well at a local Montessori school which is highly rated. There is a significant gifted student population there and we are strongly considering it. But there still a nagging part of me that sees him there next year, talking incessantly and causing similar headaches. Clearly, we don’t want to go through another year like this past one. Without any GATE curriculum we are left with fighting the same battle year after year, only with different teachers. It’s not working out for anyone involved.

Anyone have a similar experience?

Al J

P.S. Sorry for the post length! It’s been a long year!

Montessori might be the way to go. Go and observe a classroom in action. Ask the recieving teacher what she does with children who are 'overly talkative.' It's quite possible that their self-paced materials will give him something to do besides read, talk and play with this this's teacher's minds. I don't blame him for setting for himself the interesting challenge of seeing how far he can push the teacher, but I wouldn't want my son left in an environment where his has to self-enrich in quite that way.

Have you tried that 'transforming the difficult child workbook' by lisa bravo? I see it as a way of 'saving kids the bother' of acting out in order to get their attention needs filled.

that 'feet off the table' thing sounds Oh So familiar. Cringe! But gratefully DS is now much more interested in getting postive attention for his many talents and strengths.

Good luck, whatever you do!
Grinity

Funny you should mention this book because we've just read it and started working on the techniques. It actually works! He still has his moments but this technique really helps (it helps us too). Too often we overlook the times when he's doing well and come down on him when he messes up. Turning the model upside down is simple but ingenious!

Thank you for the link to the article BTW! My oldest falls btwn a type 1 & type 6 on that. Advocating for her and her being accelerated is likely what pushed her more toward the type 6 part. My youngest, like your ds, was pretty close to that type 2 in elementary with some of the 3 & 4 aspects in there (b/c she's a girl and 2e).

We were advised not to push for GT placement or any accelerating by a psych despite gifted-highly gifted IQ scores. I am really, really glad that we didn't head that advice. While she is still different from a large majority of the kids in her classes, her self image is much more intact and she's learning how to work around her challenges by being better placed academically.

I'd definitely consider the Montessori strongly if you can make it work. We've generally found that having kids of similar ability to oneself (dd13 had an unusual group of HG peers in middle school) does a lot toward shrinking one's head and grounding a kid. He's a young boy. Getting him to sit still and be quiet may not be totally in the cards, but I'd bet that his social issues in class will diminish if his placement is better as well.

Your son sounds just like mine- he single handedly won the class the pajama party for reading minutes- he reads reads and reads- rushes through the work when he does it ( he does not apply himself) and would do everything you described-he is impulsive, talks a lot- except when reading. we call him the loophole king- "well technically you said x not y." it's exhausting. We tried montessori when he was younger and it was a disaster- they do not do a good job( from my experience) of really letting them go at their pace and they can get away with doing as little as possible. One Montessori preschool said- he keeps asking for more activities- he's done all the ones that are out already- I said give him new ones- they responded with but it's so fast that should be in an older classroom....I am sure you can fill in the rest- so we moved him to a different school. Structure is better for mine even if he bridges that getting in trouble line like yours- the Montessori was not good for us- FWIW.
Good Luck!
Brandy

I'm happy to hear that it's working for you. A lot of little gifties seem to have 'absolute value bars' around their desire for attention - any attention will do - positive or negative! I set a timer to ring in my pocket to remind me to go an energize positivity. A lot of us gifted parents with our own perfectionistic patterns find the negative a whoooooole to more dramatic and exciting. I had to break my own addiction to negativity and hypervigilence at that time. Anyway, one of our family values became 'Taking No for an Answer' and one of our rules became 'no lawyering'

Remember to reset him when his toe is just one millimeter over the line and not wait until he's doing something bad enough to really irritate you. That look on his face is really enough to call him on. I watch Ceaser Millan's The Dog Whisperer to get an idea of how calm and how subtle the timing is. In Millan's parlance, he 'touches' when the dog gets 'fixated.' He doesn't wait for the dog to have caused major trouble.

Keep me posted, ok?
Smiles,
Grinity

An update (in case anyone cares): once our DS8 learned we were visiting other schools, his behavior at school changed QUICKLY. His teacher said whatever we were doing, keep it up because it's working. He still has his issues but that surly/combative boy is largely gone. Yay! :-)

From a testing perspective, he is working with the psychologist on getting that coding score up and she says he is totally rocking it. Not sure if he took the initial test seriously or what but we are expecting the low coding to no longer be an issue.

As for school, we met with his next year's teacher who, God bless her, is trying as best she can to deal with the large variance in abilities. But when asked why the school does nothing with the top achievers on ITBS/CogAT she frankly stated that "we have a school full of kids who need remedial help. We don't have enough resources for anything else." That pretty much sunk whatever slim chance he had at returning to his current school.

We visited other schools and really liked a great and highly recommended Montessori school nearby. We had also all but given up on the local top-rated prep school due to cost. But when we submitted his application along with his test scores they became persistent. With a "what have we got to lose" attitude, we had him spend a full-day visiting and he really liked his experience. We simultaneously met with admissions who gave us a substantial financial aid package. We loved everything about the school - the experiential learning philosophy, ability groupings, math and arts curriculum, small class sizes, etc. but did not pursue because we assumed it was out of our price range. Their aid offer made our choice a no-brainer and we are very excited for him next year. Everyone involved thinks it will be a great fit. We are very excited how it all turned out.

Thanks to all who offered their opinions and suggestions. This forum has been a great help!