Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Kindergarten redshirting on 60 minutes tonight

This topic makes me so angry, so I'll leave it be for the most part. Needless to say with three boys, all with August birthdays (august 30th for two of them) I've encountered this with other parents numerous times and the conversations rarely go well.

My belief is that there should have to be valid proof of academic failure to hold a child back, especially at that age. Parents wanting to artificially get their children ahead by holding them back is downright cruel. My children were/are bored enough in K already...they'd really hate me if they had to do it again!

Are there cases where it should be done, absolutely! But those are not the ones that are the subject of "red shirting". I know many who do it, and it is all for the parents...not for their children. Examples like above where they appear smarter and are placed into gifted programing in later years due to it, thereby ruining the GT program with kids that don't need it and lowering instructional standards for those that do!

I'm very new to all this so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but aren't the tests to get into gifted programs calculated by age rather than grade?

IT depends what test. If you take an IQ test, it is normed to your age. My son took the OLSAT in school for entrance into the gifted program, and that seemed to be normed to his grade.

Dd took the OlSat this year and I believe it was based on ages within three months. I would be mad if she didn't make it and other older children dis if it were based on grade. Not only do people in my town redshirt like crazy, but they talk about others who don't like their poor decision to send their four year old to kinder is holding the whole class back and how could they do that to the rest of us!

I don't understand the perspective that if a child is born for example August 15th is held back for a September 1 cutoff that people think they should not qualify for GT programs. Many of GT kids have asynchronistic development and may need to mature emotionally before entering K, especially if they are 2E. The difference between an Aug 15th birthday and a Sept 2 birthday that has to wait a year in maturity is huge. Why should a child be punished based on an arbitrary date- Sept, Oct, Nov birthdays get the advantage over June, July and Aug- what is "fair" about that? I know of private schools that won't let you enroll a boy born after June-even though there is a Sept 1 cutoff- they go to a TK program. Saying a redshirted child does not belong in GT program would be like PG parents saying that HG and MG kids should not be in the same gifted class as their kid because they are more gifted- irrational right?? That would tick off the MG and HG parents who know their kid is deserving of the pullout curriculum.

Our GT program is based on COGATS and NNAT( I think that is the acronym) when they do the test it is AGE based. You either score over 132 and make it or you don't. Now if you have MAP scores in the 95% of the district( not national average because our district is higher than the national average) exceptions can be made but exceptions are based on teacher observations and recommendations too- not just MAP's.
If your child qualifies they get in- there is not a limit to the amount of kids in it. It also does not give accelerated subject work at 3rd grade- he does critical thinking and a deeper study of topics taught in regular class. Honors don't start until Middle school and non-gifted good bright students get into those too. I think that is appropriate. There are a number of Children in the local Asian community that take classes to boost their COGAT before taking the test- I say if they are that desperate- let them do it and let their kid into the GT class- it's not hurting our kids because the curriculum is what it is and all of our kids are so different with different strengths and weaknesses no program could be a fit all program. The real gifted kids are not being harmed by their presence( my son wonders why a couple kids are in his GT class- saying "Joe" just does not really seem like a PACE(GTprogram) kid- but does not see it as a bad thing). I know my son really needs to get his academic acceleration outside of a traditional public school- because they normally are not capable of accommodating the acceleration needs.

I know of a redshifted child with an October birthday with a cutoff of Jan. He is obviously verbally gifted. My dd befriended him in kinder. He was six and she was five. It was super nice to have someone in the class who interested my dd and had conversations with her. But he was so much taller and wiser and when he latched on to her as a kindred spirit amongst all the other "babies" he had a hard time letting go. I wanted her kindergarten year to be about exploring frienships since she already knew how to read. But this boy had three years in preschool and ha was done exploring friendships and he found the woman he was going to marry. I had to put a stop to that. I guessmy point it, though the redshirted kids are great playmates for my children, and I'm happy to have them in the class, sometimes it is so bad for the one being held back, especially a held back, tall, gifted boy, that it stunts their growth and there really is no answer as to how to fix it. Even though a friend like my dd is what he needed, my dd needed to explore. Unfortunately, this boy has not been moved up a grade and still has to learn to read with the babies. Also I have to mention that the parents know very well that this child is gifted.

He might have some coordination problems that interfere with his handwriting, but they have had to fight for him to get harder spelling words and such. Why would you want to hold a child back a year and then have him singled out for needing harder work? Idk.

O am still trying to figure out that whole thing and it's a year later. So, my gifted six year old will be competing with a gifted child a year older for top of the class. I have a feeling that this poor boy will lose interest in school though before we get to that point. I really don't know why this child was held back other than many other late birthday boys were also held back.

I didn't see the 60 minutes segment, but I think what the posters above are saying is they think kids are being redshirted who really wouldn't make the GT cutoff if they were in their age-appropriate grade, but parents hold them back thinking they will have higher academic achievement simply because they are older. I'll be honest - it doesn't make sense to me that that would happen! And maybe it doesn't happen in all school districts, but most of the G/T programs I've heard of have *some* component of ability testing required for elementary, which if it's a true ability test you can't prep for it and it's normed by age not grade - so kids who aren't meant to be G/T aren't going to qualify just because they are held back for a year.

We haven't redshirted any of our kids, but fwiw our EG ds has a very late birthday. Even though he needs subject acceleration, it's been a good experience for him to be one of the oldest in his class socially and emotionally. My middle dd is right smack in the middle of the age range for her grade, and to be honest, there have been *quite* a few times I wish we had redshirted her - not to get her into a GT program but because she is on the later side of emotional maturity and by the time she hit 3/4 grade that started impacting her schoolwork.

I haven't known many families who redshirted their kids, and I don't think it's terribly common where we live (my kids haven't had redshirted kids in any of their classes as far as I know). Of the families I know who've held their kids back when starting K, they didn't do it for getting their kids into GT programs, they did it because their children weren't just quite ready for full day school either emotionally or behaviorally. Most of those kids are in middle school now and overall have done well with being redshirted. Most of the families I've known who felt their kids should be in G/T fought hard for acceleration rather than being interested in redshirting.

polarbear

I found this video much more interesting. I have been saying for a while that the educational system does not fit my DS. He is bored of sitting in class all day doing work sheets, feeling unable to explore and really learn, and at the same time draining his creativity. I wish the education system would listen more to Sir Ken Robinson.

I just saw a report on the news that says younger children are more likely to be misdiagnosed with ADHD when it is really immaturity. Before we knew my son had PANDAS and we were searching for an answer as to what was wrong- one psychologist said he was "severely impaired with ADHD" she also said that I would be doing damage to my sons life if I don't medicate him. He was barely 5 ( summer birthday) and she said I should retain him- saying his intelligence was not really a factor in the decision since he had such bad ADHD. My Mommy gut said no to the retention and ADHD and I did not medicate and kept looking. She spoke in a baby voice to my son so I honestly discounted any diagnosis she made- I could see my son did not respect her( which meant he tested and pushed every boundary she had . Now we realize we were dealing with PANDAS at the time not ADHD. What she saw was him being a boy- a gifted immature boy with synchronistic development that does NOT need medication!! So if you are 30-40% more likely to get an ADHD diagnosis for being the youngest due to immaturity- why wouldn't you hold back??? Why risk getting you child labeled a trouble maker which effects the self esteem and the rest of how you function in school?? Before my son was Sick he was a big trouble maker- not able to handle the immaturity and intelligence being the youngest in the class. After being retained for medical reasons he handles his intelligence SO much better being one of the older kids. He does not get in trouble nearly as much( I wish I could say ever but he is still a handful :)) and every person at his 504 hearing for PANDAS was shocked when I told them a Dr once tried to diagnosed him with ADHD- every single person said- he does NOT have ADHD. My Dad told me if you are a hammer everything looks like a nail- this Dr was not able to distinguish immaturity in a gifted boy from ADHD. So glad my Mommy Gut was so strong not to medicate but she also was really adamant I should retain him because of the immaturity- which we eventually had to do for medical issues a few years later and it did have very beneficial results in how he functions in the class. He is a leader when he was the trouble maker before(in fairness his PANDAS contributed greatly to that perspective) I look at the kids a grade older at boy scouts and I can see the difference in maturity still- but I also live in a heavy redshirted district. My ds can talk to them- generally they can't keep up on certain topics but the social interaction maturity is just off.
I still think it is the parents decision and the child should not be denied access to gifted programs- but why wouldn't you redshirted if immaturity is an issue and putting your child in jeopardy of being misdiagnosed and possibly wrongly medicated?

Why we didn't redshirt despite immaturity and 2Eness:

1. Need for appropriate academic work; we felt that our particular kids pay better attention and behave better when there's something novel in it for them.

2. Our most trusted developmental ped. is against redshirting even for kids with disabilities because it's stigmatizing (even the kindergartners know and talk about who's a year older and why) and it deprives them of challenging growth opportunities.

Even in cases of disability or immaturity, redshirting is usually not a clear-cut decision in light of these issues, and the choice should absolutely be made case by case based on what's available at the school as well as the capacities and needs of the child.

Despite our copious challenges, we are still glad we didn't redshirt.

DeeDee

ETA: BGbarnes, I'm not questioning your choice, btw, and it sounds as though it worked out well for you. Just answering your question: I do not think the risk of an ADHD misdiagnosis should automatically indicate redshirting.