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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Junior Member
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OP
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13 |
Just found out the ceiling issues for WPPSI, The most common wisdom is, on the Wechsler tests (WPPSI, WISC or WAIS), a ceiling is a score of 17-19 on a subtest, and the whole test may be an underestimate if 2 or more subtest ceilings are reached.
Checked DD5's WPPSI report, among all 10 subtests, she got 7 hit the ceilings (18, 19 for Block Design, Matrix Reasoning, picture Concepts, Information, Vocabulary, Word Reasoning, coding), and the rest 3 are almost the ceiling, (16, Receptive Vocab, picture naming, symbol search).
Any suggestions on this ceiling issues, does it mean other tests may be better to handle this? Then, which one is more reliable, can show more clear picture? Her current score 150, >99.9 Percentile on both Performance Scale I.Q. and Full Scale are qualified for for YS Application though.
But, just want to learn from other parents who meet the same issues, have you tried to compare with other tests?
If 7 subtests hit the ceiling, how much she could be improved if she took other test instead without ceiling issue?
BTW, she took WJ-III Ach test along with WPPSI, and got:
157, > 99.9% on Broad Reading
165, > 99.9% on Broad Math
167, > 99.9% on Math Calc Skills
Is there ceiling issues on WJ-III Achievement test too.
Will SB-5 do better than WISC for kids who is extremely strong at Logic, Reasoning, Math, Design, Blocks?
From Hoagies, it says, All achievement and intelligence tests have ceilings, highest possible scores. Most tests have subtests, and each subtest has a ceiling, sometimes the same as the other subtests, sometimes different, and these subtest ceilings contribute to lowering the overall test score if a child is not evenly or "globally" gifted. And some tests, though they have fairly high ceilings, were not designed to test all the way up to those ceilings - they are only there for subtest head room for the lower scores. For example, the Wechsler intelligence tests were not designed to differentiate scores above 130 (see GT-World's FAQ on The Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) for a quote from Dr. Wechsler).
So how do you know if your child has reached a ceiling on a test? The most common wisdom is, on the Wechsler tests (WPPSI, WISC or WAIS), a ceiling is a score of 17-19 on a subtest, and the whole test may be an underestimate if 2 or more subtest ceilings are reached.
But often, parents are told that the child didn't hit a ceiling, because she didn't answer all the questions correctly, or he didn't get to the hardest questions the test had to offer. Are these not ceilings? There are two ways to identify a ceiling. First, if the child answered any more questions correctly, could she score any higher on the subtest? If the answer is no, she could not score any higher, then it is a ceiling. Second, was the termination criteria for the subtest reached? Tests have specific requirements for stopping a subtest. Commonly, the student must get less than x questions correct of the last y questions asked. If the child did not reach the termination criteria, he hit the ceiling. Either one of these identify a test ceiling.
The next logical question is, even if my child hit the ceiling on two or three (or more) subtests, but that can't mean she hit the ceiling on the whole test, can it? Well... what it does mean is that you don't know. Ceilings are just that - you don't know how tall the building is, how many more floors it might have - once you hit the ceiling. You're just staring at the ceiling. Is it the inside of the roof? Or is there one more floor, or ten more floors? You don't know.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,898
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,898 |
As I so often say, someone who knows more will be along in a minute, but my 2pworth: your DD is beyond measure. She might not hit ceilings on the SBV or the WISCIV, or she might, but even if she doesn't, there weren't a lot of kids like her in the norming sample. About the only reason for doing more testing on a kid like her would be if she had some great unevenness or relative disability that you wanted to get a picture of, where the testing might help - but that doesn't seem to be the case here, does it? I doubt if more testing is going to help you. Better to concentrate on getting her learning needs met. If you meet a school where the tests you've got aren't enough to convince them she's unusual, don't get more tests, run the other way!
Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Junior Member
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OP
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13 |
Definitely, she won't take another test till years later if needed, Just want to know for general which test will handle ceiling issues better, cause they are so many experts and experienced parents here. And the answers will be very helpful for other new parents who just stepped in this field. They will consider these issues first before choosing from different tests.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,783
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,783 |
Part of the issue with the WPPSI is that it's intended for a narrow age range, and your DD is already close to the top of that range in ability.
There would be more headroom on a test with a broader age range (if she takes it while still fairly young.)
The achievement testing on kids this young is hard to get a handle on because a kid that's reading and doing math at all looks quite unusual. You probably won't get meaningful grade equivalents from the achievement testing.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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You probably won't get meaningful grade equivalents from the achievement testing. Yes, you are right, there is no grade equivalents item in her WJ-III Achievement report, only Age Equivalents, which is around 8 yrs 6 months to 9 years 4 months. The psychologist said, because she is 5, hard to get GE, Just AE, cause the count needs to be 6 to get GE, not sure how it calculated.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694 |
Our DD did the WPPSI at 4y9m and the SB5 at 5y4m. In her case she had ceiling issues on the WPPSI where she hit soft ceilings (she ran out of test before reaching her level, but made mistakes along the way or gave vague answers and so was getting 17s rather than 18-19s). This was in part due to not gel-ing with the tester and so preferring to give the briefest possible answer to questions where she could have scored either 1 or 2 and so often scoring only 1. Her FSIQ was 8 points higher on the SB (146 v 138).
Given that you don't have that particular problem the only benefit I could see for your DD would be that the SB5 has extended norming, like the the WISC, so if she is actually beyond 150 then there is a chance to show that. As I understand it the extended norms of the SB work slightly differently to the WISC. The SB is supposed to be a more mathy test, and good for the visual spatial types.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 13 |
I am little confused, what does PG means? Some says 160+ IQ score means PG, Some says 145+. Is YS application minimal score requirements the same as PG minimal requirements?
And also, when people say 145+, 160+, it only means full IQ scale, or any subtest scores? Seems YS application only require any subtest score.
Lost in these terminology.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694 |
Well there is no clear agreement on what to call the levels of giftedness and where exactly the lines are. But in general when you read something where the numbers are 160-180 or higher they are using older style IQ reports, not the WPPSI3, WISC4 or SB5. Without using extended norms the hard limit of the current tests is 160 and I think I have read that it isn't actually possible to score 155 in practice. Davidson have drawn the PG line at 145. But it is somewhat arbitrary, some children in the lower to mid 140s may turn out to be truly profound and some who score right at 145 are going to be less profound than those who could have scored higher with more test available to them... And ultimately it's one moment in time...Dottie, who is no longer posting here, but was something of a Wechsler scoring interpretation expert, would say "Data over time."
DYS will accept an index score in the 145+ range, not a single subtest. So the Verbal or Non Verbal section for example. This allows them to catch the kids whose thinking is in that range but maybe they have a weakness or disability in another area.
I don't know if that helped, but I think you can safely say that your child's scores on both IQ and achievement fall into the PG range by any current measure.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,694 |
You might find this useful: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htmThough I must say that I asked the psychologist who tested my DD with the SB5, our local gifted expert, whether she agreed with this chart that SB5 numbers and she did not seem to. She felt that SB5 and WISC4 numbers should be considered to be directly comparable. She described my DDs FSIQ of 146 on the SB5 as HG.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3
Junior Member
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3 |
The charts in the Hoagies page make no sense to me.
I do not get why the LOG should be different for the
SB5 and the WISC/WIPPS (with no extended norms). Aren't
they based on the same idea of a Gauss curve with 15
as the standard deviation ?
While it does not mean that the results are comparable
is *does* mean that is is just as rare to get 130 in each
test.
But according to the Hoagies' table this would put
you in the MG range for the WISC, but could put you
in the EG for the SB5. This seems nonsense to me.
135 will still be MG for WISC but could me PG for the
SB-5 ?? Again, nonsense.
Can someone clarify this ??
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