Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional "I've never seen a child like him, good luck!"

You may find the SENG wbsite helpful, below is a link to their media page.

http://www.sengifted.org/publications_audiolibrary.shtml

The last recording is:
Practical Strategies for Managing Intensity, Inflexibility, Perfectionism and Sensitivity
Speaker: Barbara Probst, MSW, LCSW.
It speaks of working on given issues that are of concern instead of searching for a single diagnosis.
Her book, "When the labels don't fit" is starting out good I have not really read that much of it yet.

I am also reading "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene and "Different Minds" by Diedre Loveky, I also find both of them helpful.

I'm not sure if the book "the nurtured heart approach transforming the difficult child workbook" has been suggested it is also helpful.

wookiemouse, I sent you a PM -- flashing envelope near the top of your screen.

Thanks for all the referrals - I'm very familiar with "The Explosive Child" and have "Different Minds" on my nightstand right now. And we are currently filling out the paperwork for the Gifted Development Center in Denver to get a consultation started, thank you SO much for that referral!

DeeDee - he tries really hard to relate to other kids. He spent 2 days over Thanksgiving break watching "Power Rangers" because that's what his "best friend" at school is in to. But it's so not him! He'd rather watch "How It's Made" but he sat through several cartoons because he wanted to be able to talk with his friend about it. He plays games with the other kids at school, like Star Wars, even though he doesn't know what it's about - he just wants to be part of the group. So he's not a loner, but I think he's very much aware of how different he is. The kids he's gotten along with best in the past are either a year or 2 younger that he can boss around, or 4-5 years older that he can talk to on THEIR level. On the compliance issue - I never have to give a lengthy explanation, just a logical one (usually, the simpler the better). For example - we had planned to go to a local jumpy place last Friday as a reward for him having a good week at school. We had talked about it all week. When Friday came around, I had had a long day and was tired, so I told him we could go on Saturday instead. He asked "Whyyyy???? You said we could go today!" and I told him I was tired, so he could go today and jump for an hour, or go on Saturday after I rested and jump for 2 hours. He says "We'll go Saturday!" and the discussion was over. ALL potential arguments are like this. I can change plans at any time and as long as I provide a reason that makes sense, he's fine with it.

HoneyBadger (LOVE LOVE LOVE the name, btw) - he was initially diagnosed as ADHD at age 4 by a child psychiatrist. She prescribed Adderall and he was on it for one week with no behavioral changes and horrible side effects, so I said enough. We decided to pursue other options instead - we started the Feingold diet (no artificial colors or preservatives) and within 3 months, the hyperactivity was gone and she said he no longer fit the clinical definition of ADHD and we were pretty much shoved out the door with an "that's all I can do, sorry!" We took it further and removed casein (dairy), gluten and soy. In doing so, we eliminated all tantrums, pushing/bumping into other kids and objects, aggression, and his eczema. We tested all 3 back in after about 6 months - the casein reaction was immediate (mother of all meltdowns) but he seemed to do ok with gluten and soy. Then on day 3 of testing, the school called us to ask what we did to the kid since he was out of control. We took them back out of his diet, he went back to his cheerful self. Interestingly, the misdiagnosis book I read said 30-40% of gifted kids have food sensitivities (specifically listed were food dyes, gluten, dairy and soy!) that result in behavioral issues. Another problem solved!

I DO agree that it's not about the labels - it's about treating the issues. But there is also the line regarding what IS or is NOT an issue. If my DS has poor handwriting because of poor fine motor skills that comes with the Aspergers, then by all means, he should be in therapy. But if he has poor handwriting because he's simply gifted and most gifted kids have poor handwriting because it's not important to make it nice and pretty, then it's a trait and not necessarily something to correct. He seems to have no issues coordinating his little fingers in building small circuitry sets in his room for hours on end. The same with inattentiveness - when the class is reading BOB books during storytime and he keeps wandering, yet he just finished his 4th Lemony Snicket book while sitting perfectly still in his bedroom for half the day, maybe it's not ADHD, but boredom?

What I'm basically seeking is a second opinion of a diagnosis, which I think any parent would do if this were a physical ailment. I haven't pulled him out of any therapy, we'll continue to do so because what he is currently doing is no harm, no foul. But I also don't want to be sitting here 3 years down the road, kicking myself because his issues have worsened and I knew in my gut that we weren't pursuing the right treatment - whether it is indeed therapy for Aspergers, or getting him into a more challenging school environment. I'd rather get it right the first time if I can!

Hi Wookiemouse,


I think if you want to rule in/rule out developmental issues like AS or ADHD you should also make sure to see someone who's dealt extensively with those issues. In our family's experience, if there's anything else going on in addition to the giftedness, that's actually a bit more important than the gifted piece at this age, in terms of figuring out a plan.

FWIW, we found that the autism experts tended to handle giftedness with reasonable aplomb when evaluating him, whereas people who saw the giftedness as primary completely wrote off DS's serious problems as "quirks," thereby delaying DS's treatment by years.


I'd definitely seek more information were I in your shoes; just saying to be aware that the expertise of the person you ask can seriously change the result.


I'd say that if the handwriting is illegible, it should probably be worked on, regardless of the cause. It's so easy to get hung up on giftedness, and use it to excuse things that can be remediated through careful teaching. Handwriting doesn't have to be calligraphy, but the teachers who will mark his exam papers all the way through college will be well disposed to him if it's at least legible.


Quite possible. And yet-- ADHD is an issue not mainly of inattention per se, but of regulating attention. It's perfectly possible for a person with ADHD to pay intense attention for long hours to something that interests him; it may also be nearly impossible for such a person to rip himself out of a book he loves, or sit still for something in class, because those activities require the ability to regulate one's attention.

What you're describing here doesn't rule out ADHD, only indicates that he's unusual both in capacity for deep attention-paying and for wandering when it's not appropriate to do so.

I think further evaluation could help you sort this out.

DeeDee

Wookiemouse,

Is Profoundly gifted a diagnosis? or just who he is? I'm asking because he sounds sooo much like my DS did as a little guy. I totally understand where you're at and how you feel. Rewards never worked, all motivation for him had to be internal. "Because I said so" was a complete waste of air. If the reason made sense, he'd comply. As a toddler it was speculated that he was autistic, when that fell through the cracks, aspergers was considered. At 8, he is none of those, just "wicked smart".

I've already posted this twice today on other threads, but what does your "mommy gut" tell you? Do you see any behaviors when he is truly engaged, chasing his current passion? That gut feeling, what is it telling you? The tantrums, emotional explosions and such are fairly common for PG'lets. mamy people believe that a childs EQ mirrors their IQ. I tend to agree with that statement based on who I live with.

For what it's worth, my son watches "How it's made" constantly. Why does there have to be a "diagnosis" because he doesn't like cartoons and finds his age peers boring? If that IQ number is valid, he should! Instead of looking for a diagnosis, step back, and really try to figure out what he needs. Have him tested. All information helps paint a picture.

Profoundly gifted is not something that can be cured or medicated away. But it can be managed and reveled in once you know what you are looking at!

What state are you in? Send me a PM (private message)if you don't want it public or if you have a million other questions.

Tell your son to watch "Through the Wormhole" he will love it!

Hi WookieMouse
My DS 5 has a lot of similar issues in terms of relating to other kids and the handwriting. We were "advised" in pre-k that he needed to be more like the other kids, he needed to be doing what they were doing, he needed to learn to socialize. We did not realize at first was that what they were saying was that he needed to change who he was to relate to age-mates. I once asked him why he always has to play his stories and not the other kids, and he said because they don't have any good ideas - and from his point of view he is right. Yesterday, he told us about a superhero he named Forces of Atom - who has the powers of gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force and electromagnetism. He flies by repulsing himself off the em field of the earth (was going to post that in the brag thread, but here works :)) None of his age-mates in pre-k ever got anything he was doing. And it wasn't fair to ask him to fundamentally change himself, IMO. Now he is in a gifted K, I don't know enough yet about the other kids to know if there is anybody in his vicinity in terms of this stuff - but he feels so much better about this school and these people - that he volunteered he was thankful for it on thanksgiving!

The writing is the bane of our existence right now - but he is improving - its just slow. So in a school designed to move quickly, he is not moving quickly enough on this physical and mental process. We did some OT last year and the school OT recommended some things for the teacher to implement. What we have been beating DS over the head with is the fact that doing the writing is learning the writing, even if its boring or you think you won't get better. He does not understand that he "learned" about the forces from his books and the NOVA special. Its not work from his perspective - so we had to explain that he was working at it and that he needs to do that same kind of repetition with physical things - and we are working overtime to praise the minuscule improvements he is making to show him that he is getting better at it. What I have noticed is that when the writing assignment is interesting, he is more apt to do it and do it closer to correctly that when its the mind-numbing just write letters or answer questions. Another thing that seems to be working was telling him that his teacher only knows what he is capable of by what he shows, and if he shows bad work when he can do better, she wont know he can do better and will keep assigning it until he shows it. He seemed somewhat dumbfounded by this!!

So I think you can't separate the gifted stuff from friendships - its hard to be friends with someone you have absolutely no frame of reference with, but it can be helpful to work to find one - whether its because its family or because they are neighbors, some connection. But I have noticed also that DS really prefers older kids and adults until he met age mates capable of understanding his interests. And there he realized that a 5th grader might be less interested in pretending than his K mates. The writing and the school work is different to me - that is about responsibility. He doesn't have to like it, but it has to be done. So what do we need to do to make it happen - do it in small pieces, add something, what?

Just some thoughts from another corner

DeHe

At least half the parents on here will tell you that their children have writing issues. Not sure why but it seems to be really common for GT kids.

I asked my son and he told me that for him, the pencil can't keep up with his thoughts, he loses his place. Frustration sets in and he tries to write faster but that doesn't help either. We work on it in small doses. He is allowed to type anything longer than a paragraph at school.

His handwriting was actually 100% on first grade level at our first parent-teacher meeting of the year. She also said his relationship with peers was on par as well. This all changed over the summer, from kinder to 1st grade - maturity perhaps? We did see a pedi neuro a few years ago who said autism didn't exist, it was all just frontal lobe immaturity and some kids catch up, others don't. I thought he was a nut but the more I see, the more I think he may be right.

Shari - we're in south Texas, not *too* far from you. Is profoundly gifted a diagnosis...I wonder. I wonder if school districts account for it at all, those without a dedicated GT program. Your typical gifted child will be bored in school now and then but generally doesn't act out or have behavior problems. But PG kids are so into their own worlds that they have a lot of trouble doing what is expected of them and behavioral issues result, I'm sure teachers can't see beyond the acting out most of the time. A ton of these kids fall through the cracks and are never tested because their schoolwork doesn't show what they're capable of. They're also more often medicated, which can dull their giftedness. The book was good in identifying the behaviors - all of what I've listed with my DS fit the bill - but not how to manage them. Hence another order placed with Amazon. So if he is identified in this subgroup, I wonder if he could receive provisions at school to balance out the behaviors, ie, having giftedness as a diagnosis? I guess we'll learn more about that after his testing. Anyways, there's a big difference between an Aspie who doesn't interact with peers because he doesn't understand the social relationship, and a PG who "gets it" but doesn't care because it's not a big deal to him. I really don't want to be paying $200/month plus 4 hours of therapy to teach my DS something that yes, he knows, but no, he doesn't care and will care when he needs it, if indeed he's quirky smart like your kiddo. My mommy gut tells me he isn't an Aspie. When we first got the diagnosis, I was ecstatic - after 2 years and numerous clinicians, I had something on paper I could hold on to, not "sorry, I can't help you" again. Someone who knew more than I did found out what was troubling my child and now I could read more about it and find all the tips and tricks that would make our life easier. But I have a shelf of books on Aspergers now, and they still don't make sense. Yes, he has some of the same characteristics, but the source of trouble is different. He's not a "little professor" by any stretch of the imagination, he's still just a very odd, quirky kid. I would love for him to fit the Aspie mold, to have a neat little pocket to fit in to, but it's not happening. I truly believe he's not on the spectrum.

And thanks for the tip on the Wormhole, we missed it on the Science channel but that would make a great stocking stuffer for Christmas.

DeeDee - his initial diagnosis of Aspergers was made by a developmental pediatrician who is one of the top in the field for autism. We were on a 10 month wait list just to be tested, which took 4 separate days. So she is very well versed in that disorder - her own son has Aspergers. However, she is not versed in gifted kids. So on one hand, I have an ASD expert telling me she thinks he has Aspergers but he doesn't test on the ADOS and there are a lot of characteristics that can't be explained by the Aspergers (she thought it might possibly be bipolar, which is mentioned in the misdiagnosis book as another frequently misdiagnosed condition). My plan is to have him tested at the gifted center and if they come back and say hey, this kid is just gifted and all his quirks are part of his giftedness, then I'm going back to the dev pedi with this information, and the misdiagnosis book, and ask her what she thinks and would she revise her diagnosis based on this information or not? Or, if the center comes back and says "looks like Aspergers," then I have my answer. Either way, I will be able to gain a little more insight into what makes him tick and hopefully it will help to guide my parenting. Because right now, I have a bookshelf full of books that have approaches that haven't done squat.

DeHe - looking forward to when schools go entirely digital. My kid would fly through homework if the assignments were on an iPad....his G&T class are writing out fables and I didn't know the kid LIKED writing until they did it all on iPad.

Since you are in Texas, you might want to have him tested in Arizona by Dr. Behnkin. He is consindered to be one of the premier authorities on GT kids and he is WAY cheaper than the GDC. Plus, I know a few people that have had issues with the GDC, including their need to use the SB-LM, a test that was put aside years ago by everyone else in the GT world. It tends to give really, really high scores. When I called them about testing my son, they indicated that rather than use extended norms, they would use the LM. By the time I was done with the phone consult at a cost of 225. I was convinced it was not the place for my son.

I have Dr. B's info if you want it. IQ and achievement for 1000. and they are very good.

Oh and "through the wormhole" is on every week.....