Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Don't laugh at me...but would you ever...

My daughter is in the process of being evaluated for the gifted program in our district. She's in 1st grade and they really prefer to wait until age 8 which is 3rd grade for her as she is a late July birthday...so we all agree that is too long to wait. But, b/c it is such a highly competitive program (must be 140+ in every area -- not just one) they are really careful about who and when they test. (You only get one shot -- in or out. Unless you pay for a private re-test down the road then petition the district to have them accept the scores!)

My DD is obviously very gifted in reading & writing. It all came completely naturally to her and she was completely self-taught. Now math is another story -- she tests very high on the MAPs so she obviously knows something but she doesn't sit around doing math worksheets and sometimes even has a hard time with something like 28+11 (can't do it in her head -- has to write it down). But she does understand some abstract concepts like when we're cooking she knows 8 1/2 cups make 4 cups, etc. Anyway, it isn't her "thing."

Knowing that she has to score through the roof on both, and it looks like it'll be this year sometime, and they are doing like NO MATH at school and send home reading and writing homework EVERY NIGHT, would you send her to like KUMON or Math Monkey for math enrichment? I mean, I know it would be good for her anyway, but I am wondering if it could even help her when it comes to time to test?

I am on the school like white on rice, so for now I am not comfy asking them to do more math with her. I just feel sort of stuck?

Anyone tried it? Good/bad?? Thanks!

Is the test an IQ test or an achievement test? Afterschooling math is likely to help with achievement, but not IQ.

I used to tutor Kumon- it's really rote, so it would help with math facts and speed, calculation in general, but not conceptual understanding. I also think it's worth the risk to test early- our district has a policy of waiting until 3rd grade, and my daughter is already in a pattern of underachievement because she has never been challenged. They taught her to color inside the lines and then the first screening test for GT was a creativity test where you get points for drawing outside the box. She didn't score highly enough to qualify for GT- not that there's much benefit from that here, but I was hoping for the free IQ test so I would have a better idea of how hard to push her and the system.

Yes, it is an IQ test. That's why I thought it was sort of a silly idea, as I realize you can't really change that and I am not really trying to change her anyway, except that I know she needs this program and I don't want her to test out of it and be left out forever more. I know, I sound so gloom and doom but it sounds SO final to me?

I did have a friend whose son testes EXTREMELY high for non-verbal and quite "average" for verbal, so because there was a certain percentage difference between the two they had to throw out the low scores and he was admitted. So maybe that would happen to DD? But they are very rigid about this stuff, it is all legal, mandated by the state, and not at all wiggle-room-for-the-sake-of-the-child approach. Ya know?

Anyway, is there a way for me to tell if she has a "conceptual" understanding? Or do you think I would know the way I know about her reading and writing and stuff?

The nonverbal portion of an IQ test doesn't really require conceptual knowledge of math. (AFAIK, it doesn't require any math knowledge at all.)

Yes, I second what AlexsMom said....the IQ test doesn't have any math at all. If achievement testing is used, then you need to worry about math.

Is there pretty much a HG program or the regular classroom and nothing in between? We have the opposite problem where I live where there is a GT program that admits nearly 20% of the students (top 5% achievement in any area or good leadership skills, or nominated by a teacher, or...). It doesn't meet the needs of the more HG like the kids served by your program, but it probably is a reasonable fit for those more in between kids.

It is a bummer when all that is available isn't good enough for your kid and I suspect that those kids who just miss the cut for whatever the program is are the ones whose needs really don't get met.

As far as telling if she has high conceptual knowledge of math, do you know what IQ test they are using? My oldest, who is more verbal like you describe your dd, took the WISC-IV when she was 7. She doesn't have the kind of math conceptual understanding that her younger sister does, but she's been a pretty high achiever in math since she started getting taught a more reasonable amount (mostly post-skipping a grade). She also would have done well enough on the PRI (the non-verbal part) to make the cut your program has had she not totally bombed the block design piece. That was due to two things for her, though, that may not apply for your dd: she's slower in processing speed and it is timed, and she froze and refused to complete the test handing the blocks back and saying that she couldn't do it and was done. I'm not a scoring expert on the WISC, but her three sub-tests were at 19+ (99.9th+), 17 (99th), and 8 (25th -- this was block design). I suspect that if the 8 had been even much above 10, she'd have hit the 140 point you'd need.

Point being, kids who are not necessarily mathy can do very well on non-verbal tests, so I wouldn't rule out that she has significant abilities in that area even if arithmetic isn't super high right now.

Hi Artsmartmom,
It's frustrating to try and make one's child fit into any 'round hole' at all. I wish that all schools had multiple gifted offerings because gifted kids come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and ALL kids deserve to be taught at their readiness level, even if that varies widely from subject to subject.

That said, then there is reality.

So if you are going to devote a portion of her percious childhood to peg fitting, I think it should be fun and build closeness between her and human, you or her dad or another family member if possible.

I've recently read 'How Your Child Learns Best: Brain-Friendly Strategies You can Use to Ignite...' by Judy Willis
hoping to learn some Neuorscience. Well, that didn't happen, but I was suprised to see that Willis's approach seems a very reasonalbe outline of how to add value to your child's engagement with learning.

It was also eye-opening in that it's pitched to a wide variety of children, and it was interesting to get a picture of what working with ND kids might be like. She does 'get' gifted kids though and has asides throughout the book specificially for academically advanced kids.

So that's one way to go.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks so much everyone - your information continues to be invaluable! So yes, in our district it is HG or nothing. Their take on it is that our district is teaching up a grade level already, to meet the needs of the many bright kids in the district. So, if they let in all the kids at 120 or 125 and above they'd end up with about 20% of the kids in the district. So, they've raised it to 140 and say that the kids under that are served in the regular classroom (with differentiation if necessary). So, my DD gets chapter books for homework while the other kids get regular 1st grade books (I am not even sure what they are?) And she (supposedly) has logic, math, and other "packets" to work on while the class is doing something she already knows. Sooo, while I do think she's gifted and I do think she'll test high, I just do not know she'll test 140+ with NO exceptions, ya know? But it sounds like there is no way to know until they just do it.

They have her in a "level 2 intervention" right now -- which is basically a 4-6 week evaluation done right before the recommend testing (or not). So they are supposed to be looking for the qualities they believe will make her test "in" and they have to provide all of this justification to the district in order to test. Soooo, I guess I should just be glad we've gotten this far so early in her first grade year. : )

Grinity -- What does ND mean? Do you think the book would be a good read for me? My friend and I are starting a SENG group class (have you heard of this?) tomorrow night. It is an 8 week session, and follows a book though I do not have the book yet. Should be interesting!?

Do you really think that 20% of your neighborhood kids are in the tope 5% of the nation in terms of intelligence? If so, I do imagine that they have some experience with providing for the needs of these kids in the classrooms and, if your dd isn't fitting there, she is probably higher than this by a reasonable amount. That's where I take exception with our schools' id processes b/c I really don't believe that 20% of our kids are that high or that my oldest is more than slightly into the HG category yet she is so totally different than the majority of the kids in the GT programming that it was not even close to a fit without the grade skip.