Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Public School with IEP or Private School?

Just found this forum and am hoping your experience can help us with a few things. DD just completed an astonishingly awful year of kindergarten at a regional magnet school which we selected in part due to the multi-age classroom setting. She had always been �way ahead of the curve� on most things but also was in private OT for a fine motor deficit. We assumed she would receive kindergarten level instruction where needed and more advanced instruction where needed. She ended up receiving little to no instruction at all. During her first week of kindergarten she actually lost playground privileges when she was unable to write a specific sentence despite the teacher being aware of her fine motor deficit. It only went downhill from there. By the end of the year our happy, outgoing, confident 6 year old was clinically anxious.

The last weeks of the school year we were finally able to arrange for special ed testing to see if she could qualify for in-school OT. At the meeting we also pointed out our concerns about her reading � usually reading at or above grade level at home but barely willing to acknowledge that she knew her letters while at school. We thought this was the result of the anxiety she had developed in this school and made arrangements to enroll her in a wonderful (albeit very expensive) private school next year. The low key, no pressure environment that was focused on one-to-one teaching and no testing seemed perfect. We proceeded with the special ed eval primarily because we were told it would be a huge expense to do on our own later if for any reason it seemed to be needed.

Got the results last week and they showed a 40 point difference between her Verbal Comprehension Index and Perceptual Reasoning Index, which we are told places her in less than one half of one percent of the population. Various verbal comprehension scores in the 96th-98th percentile while Perceptual Reasoning, Processing Speed and Alphabet/Word Knowledge were all 5th percentile.

The special ed coordinator for the town has only seen 1 other kid with these types of scores in her 30+ year career; the school psych that did the testing had never seen anything like it. They are telling us the she NEEDS to be in a public school so that an integrated combination of special ed services can be provided. They also acknowledge that the town does not have a mechanism to offer enrichment prior to 4th grade so we are not sure if her comprehension strengths will be supported. They are taking a personal interest in her because they view her as a unique situation but they are also flying blind. The private school would have us contract with an Orton Gillingham specialist who would come to the school 4 days per week, at an additional cost of almost 50% of the already steep tuition. We would also continue to do OT privately, as well as potentially counseling for the anxiety.

Does she really need to be in a public school, at least until we figure out exactly what the special ed needs are? She would go to our local school � definitely won�t subject her to the magnet again. Can a private school meet her needs (12 kids to a classroom with 2 masters level teachers per room) without having someone in house coordinating the special ed component? Can the public school actually meet her needs if they have not seen this situation in the past 25 years or so? We are confident that her anxiety and comprehension are better suited to the private. The special ed and our wallet, though, make us wonder if public really is the better option. Any ideas? All input is welcome.

Thanks in advance.

My advice is to try the private. My D (age 16) has some unusual score splits as well (including very high verbal, but slow processing speed). Our private school has provided some very good services without requiring extra expense on top of tuition -- I would suggest you put her in the private with the two teachers first and see how that goes without the additional outside services.

I have to disagree- our feeling has been that it is better to go to the public school if your child has a disability/something that can be addressed by an IEP. Private schools DO NOT have to offer the same services to you. It's just that simple. You can try to get the IEP set up there, but they don't have to do it.
Private schools also may have less experience, despite what they say, at taking care of children with disabilities. The public schools HAVE to deal with that- per the ADA laws.
My son is very bright and hearing impaired. We went through 2 private schools and finally came to our (excellent) public school, which has been fantastic for the hearing loss.
HTH.

I wouldn't make any decisions based on test scores until you think about if those scores reflect the ability or just anxiety. Paying for a private eval might save a bundle in tuition money. Or assure you that one choice is better.

So much depends on the individual teacher.

Best wishes
Grinity

Another option to consider -- special ed services through public school while attending private. I had a friend who did this with her son who is now in high school. In elementary, he had always been perceived as a poor student due to reading difficulties. At some point, they gave him a standardized test and he had one of the top three math scores in the state. The teacher accused him of cheating. At that point the mom had outside testing done and showed that he was 2e. Mom couldn't face sending him back to the public school but the private school had no expertise working with dyslexia.

I believe he went to the public school for a few hours a couple days per week for specialized reading instruction and went back to the private school for the rest of the day. Public school initially balked at the idea and I believe that she had to file a due process claim under the IDEA. You may not be ready to go there but it might give you some of the benefits of both worlds.

This is a tough one, Pemberley. I think you should gather more information from private (non-school) professionals as soon as possible. If she were mine, I'd want a full neuropsych workup to identify all disabilities so you know exactly what you're dealing with. A school eval doesn't cover everything, and you want really solid information.

Private school is suggesting Orton-Gillingham-- so they think she's dyslexic? Or just offering a resource? I suspect you don't need to hire the specialist until you know for sure that that issue is there to treat; as far as I know O-G only treats dyslexia.

Our approach with our 2E (Asperger's) DS9 has been to stay in public school, partly because there's no private school here that will meet the need. We did spend the better part of three years in active negotiation to get the public school to understand and work well with DS; they are now on board and trying hard, and largely succeeding. Big wins from staying in public school included having a special ed teacher whose job it was to coordinate everything and make sure he was successful across all subjects, including wrangling the specials teachers, and our having the legal authority to go back to them when it wasn't working and ask them to do it a new way. The in-school therapies were a plus, though they always come with tradeoffs (being pulled out of subjects to go do therapy).

My understanding of private schools, gleaned from others' experiences, is that sometimes they think they can handle a kid with disabilities, and then it turns out to be hard, the teacher gets discouraged and/or punitive because the problems are out of his/her league, and then the situation goes sour. And you have no guaranteed legal right to be there, so they can give up anytime. But sometimes they are wonderful. You should go watch in the classrooms-- not that you will see anybody just like your child, but if you watch for a while you will see how the outliers (slower/faster/different) are being handled.

You probably need to decide something very soon, if you're somewhere in the US where school starts imminently. Do you know what the teacher placement would be at the public school? Does the principal in the current public school know about the problems you had with last year's teacher? Have you talked to other special needs parents (maybe there's a support group in the district)? IMO the right teacher can go a long way toward making a placement workable (or not).

If you had a sense that the public school was going to be okay, I might stick there until you have more information, just because changing schools might feel hard for a first grader and changing twice (back and forth) could be tough on her, confusing, etc. (You can probably always move to the private if you need to later?)

And yet, know this: your DD will change as she grows, so don't feel you have to get it right forever. Find the fit that meets the current needs best, and plan to change it if you need to.

HTH,
DeeDee

You may not have to choose based on the cost of private special ed services. Under IDEA 2004, LEAs (Local Education Agencies) are responsible for providing "equitable services" to private school students within their boundaries. It is possible that some services for your child could be included in this if she enrolls in the private school

http://www.wrightslaw.com/idea/osep/faqs.parent.placemts.pdf

To be clear, there is no IEP requirement, and no individually mandated services to private school students like there are for public students, but the district does have to provide some services to private school students with disabilities, and it is worth checking out to see if your child's needs could be included there, if you feel that the academic environment at the private would be a better fit.

If the anxiety is severe enough that you and your child's therapist feel that a regular PS classroom would be inappropriate, you can always disagree with the school's proposed IEP and ask for tuition and special ed and related services reimbursement for the private school and the Orton-Gillingham tutor, if that is what is clearly needed. They will almost certainly say no, but you can either enroll her in the private school anyway and press ahead with the appeals process at that point, (considering the fact that they completely failed to provide an appropriate education in the year that she was enrolled, and their teachers' behavior toward a child with a previously documented physical disability is largely responsible for her current anxiety) or use the threat of doing so as leverage to get the tutor provided at public expense or to get a better IEP at the public school.

BTW, the local public district is responsible for evaluating private school children suspected of having disabilities under the child find provisions of IDEA, so if they told you that they were not, that is a red flag regarding how well they may be meeting their other obligations under that law.

It is also worth noting that, when the time comes to develop the IEP if you choose to go with the public option, you might want to push for accelerated work in her areas of strength in order to help reduce her anxiety, with supporting documentation from her therapist. If the advanced work is required to help ameliorate one of her disabilities, then failure to provide it is failure to provide a FAPE.

I really recommend familiarizing yourself with the material over at wrightslaw.com before you get too much further into this process.

Aculady makes a lot of good points. If you go the routes she suggests, though, I'd suggest hiring a professional special ed advocate. (Sometimes you can get one free from your state, but not quickly.)

I spent my DS's kindergarten year reading law to protect his rights, and it would have been much more effective for me to immediately hire out that piece of the job so I could focus on other things more closely. We ended up with a terrific advocate who was experienced in our district who negotiated a lot of help for DS, much better than I ever could have done alone.

DeeDee

Thank you so much for all the replies. A little more detail may help clarify:

The regional magnet she attended was located in the neighboring large city where the private is also located. Our town indeed has a school psych assigned to work with kids attending private schools and magnet schools. The magnet was required to contact her and never did. In fact they repeatedly stopped us from doing so with their insistence "she would never qualify". It was June before we were given the information to contact her ourselves. Trust me - I have been kicking myself over and over for not having found a way to have made this happen earlier.

Yes, the town will provide up to 45 minutes per week of special ed services for a student enrolled in a private school within the town's borders. Since this private school is located across the border, though, the large city would be responsible for determining need and providing service. Based on our experience last year we have absolutely no faith in the efforts they would make. Even if they provided service I do not feel confident that it would be of sufficient quality to address her issues.

Yes, they are saying she is dyslexic. Oddly the director of special ed said she never believed dyslexia existed before meeting DD. I never knew there was a question about that... Anyway the director of special services indicated that this does not appear to be a typical form of dyslexia and indicated it is somewhere between "very rare" and "unique". They rejected the idea that her scores were deflated because of the anxiety when I raised it with them. As I said they are taking a special interest but are flying blind.

The private school is an amazing place - totally child centered, totally no pressure, totally individualized. In my gut I KNOW she needs to be there it is just a question of whether I can do it now or if we need to get a handle of just what additional resources she will need to have provided. They had their K-1 and 2-3 teachers review her test results and they feel strongly that they can offer the best learning environment for her, as long as she has the additional help with the dyslexia. The woman from the dyslexia program had her organization review the test results and they are also confident that they can meet her needs. I just don't know what additional services may end up being needed and I can see the cost rising and rising to even more unreasonable levels.

The public school special ed teacher apparently is completing Orton Gillingham training this summer and I have heard 100% positive reviews about her. She is supposed to be fabulous. We are including in the IEP a request for enrichment opportunities but I have been told it will be up to the classroom teacher to include them. We plan to meet with the principal early this week to discuss placement with the correct classroom teacher.

I will call the pediatrician in the am - planning to ask for a complete ophthalmological exam as well as a neurological or neuropsych exam. DD suffered a concussion in February but a relative who is a pediatrician felt strongly that was not a factor when I showed him the test results. I think Dee Dee makes a good point, though, and I will strongly request one. We will obviously discuss the anxiety too but it is amazing how quickly it dissipated once she was out of school. I am sure it will be retriggered once she steps foot in a school again. Any other suggestions for requests or questions to the pediatrician?

We have been playing telephone tag with the director of the largest 2E program in the country. Even though we are not in their school district I guess DD's situation is unusual enough that people have been extremely kind in trying to help us. Any suggestions for questions to pose this person once we are able to schedule our phone conversation?

I am also interested in any questions or key phrases to use when speaking to the principal in the next few days. I feel so burned by the magnet I am more than a bit uneasy about expecting the public to meet her needs. As I said earlier they are definitely taking a personal interest but really have no experience. (i.e. they had no idea what the term "twice exceptional" was when I used it during our IEP meeting the other day.)

It is interesting that the mix of responses here is so closely echoing my own thought process as I go back and forth between the 2. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I am so, so glad to have found this forum. Please keep your ideas coming - I will be needing them as we make our final decision very soon.

I can see why they're out of the question.


Please don't kick yourself. These things (both concerning the kid and the legal stuff around the kid) are hard to figure out.


And they might not if you don't live in that district. At least, that's how it is here.


It will be your job to find outside experts to educate them. That would be strenuous but not impossible.


Can you afford the private plus the Orton Gillingham for 1-3 years? So far as I know dyslexia is best remediated early. Even if she can't stay there for her whole career, private may be worth a good look. Would your insurance cover outside OT?


Look at your state's laws about serving gifted students. Some states guarantee nothing, some mandate a gifted ed plan.

We found that the 2E status did allow us to get better content, nearly by accident, because DS's plan was individualized anyway.


Get her ears checked too. Thoroughly.


That wouldn't bother me much. They don't hang around on these boards where terms like these are used. My questions would be more-- do they think that gifted children may need different material from early on? -- do they have teachers who are capable of differentiating instruction? -- what is their attitude toward differentiation, at the principal level, for both disabled and gifted?

Best,
DeeDee

Also consider getting an audiology exam to test the hearing since the hearing screens at the pediatrician's office are often inaccurate.

Just off the phone with the principal at the local public - explained the situation and made an appointment to meet tomorrow. I think she gets it - she said herself that placing DD in the right classroom will be huge. I also mentioned a gifted friend of DD who will also be in 1st grade next year as a possible enrichment partner and she is going to look at where that girl is placed to see if it looks like a good place for DD too. All good things.

The school psych and special ed coordinator are both on vacation for the next 2 weeks so we won't have an actual IEP in hand until just before school starts. Even then it will be more general as they want the classroom teacher and resource teacher from the school to be involved in determining actual services. Yes there will be classroom accommodations for reading, writing and anxiety and 2 1/2 hours of pull out special ed each week. I am concerned because they mentioned pulling her out during "comprehension" tasks since she is ahead there anyway. I pointed out that she would still need comprehension work just not at a typical 1st grade level. And yes, they did say that she would likely be in a low level reading group which I envision causing problems.

The reading gets even more confusing because we enrolled her in fun, low pressure parent/child reading program this summer and they placed her reading at mid-first grade level. Magnet and testing both say below K level. To further complicate things my pediatrician relative said that anything below 4th grade level would be considered remedial considering her comprehension. Our pediatrician is on vacation this week but hoping someone covering will be able to get the ball rolling on some of the referrals. DD has had several hearing tests due to ear infections and ENT thinks her hearing is fine.

Master of None hits the nail on the head - she clearly felt unsafe (both emotionally and physically) at the magnet and was in an extremely punitive environment. This was precisely our thinking and thought it was all going to be resolved when we found the private with what looks like a learning environment that is perfect for her. Then came the special ed results.

Which begs the question - are these results really as bizarre as the town is saying or is it typical in a 2E situation and they just don't have the needed experience?

Very high IQ kids are relatively rare in the population. The ones with disabilities tend not to be identified as gifted. The school may have seen kids like yours before and not known what they were dealing with; or they may never have seen one.

Our gifted teacher says that in some 30+ years of teaching ours was the first IEP meeting she ever attended. To me, that says gifted kids with disabilities are vastly under-identified as gifted. They mostly struggle along. Cricket's posts here about her younger DD seem to me a characteristic 2E experience.

So: good that you're figuring out your DD. You and your professionals will teach whatever school she attends a whole bunch.

DeeDee

What a relief to hear such reasoned voices of experience. I really was starting to feel that I must be going crazy.

Had a wonderful phone call today with the director of the largest 2E program in the country. She feels that the test results are likely fairly accurate - the scatter was consistent across enough areas to be confirming each other. While the specific numbers may not be accurate the general result of the test seems to be confirming 2E.

Interesting points she made - I was concerned about the effect of DD being placed in a low reading group. She suggests asking for a dual level approach. In one reading setting she works on her problems with reading the text and in the other she works on her high level of comprehension using technology, a peer reader, book on tape, etc. Since she will be working on reading during her pull out times I can request her in class reading group be focused on her strength with accommodations. It sounds like a great plan if the school will go for it. She said that they recommend modeling the day after a gifted student's day rather than an LD student's day and said that having a committed team leader will be the biggest key.

We discussed the private school option which she felt sounded like a good plan too. The drawbacks are the lack of a special ed coordinator and whether adaptive technology will be available. I hadn't considered that cost - if we have to purchase special equipment the cost indeed goes higher and higher. We also took another look at the paperwork from the OG program. The cost I quoted was for 2 days per week. If they worked with DD the same amount of time each week that the public is talking about the cost would literally double. I just can't see how we could do it. I think we have to enroll her in the public and see if the 2x per week would even have a chance of working.

I also spoke with the OG tutor and she indicated that the public school spec ed teacher is likely just starting her OG training - it will take another 2 years for her to reach an associate level and even longer to reach a master level so it won't actually be full fledged OG by the time she is working with DD but I am still happy to hear she is going through the training.

I also made an appointment for an ophthalmological exam and contacted my insurance about setting up a neuropsych exam - will schedule it tomorrow.

So to recap today I spoke with the principal at the public and think she is onboard, spoke with one of the best authorities on 2E there is and she confirmed in general terms that DD's test is probably an accurate representation of 2E needs and my town seems to be doing the right things. Confirmed the private would be a great option but the cost will be much higher than we were thinking. Tomorrow we meet the principal and visit the public, hopefully have a chance to learn more about a good match with a teacher.

Wow� no wonder I am exhausted! Thanks everyone you have been a HUGE help.

Pemberley, congratulations on the incredible thoroughness AND speed with which you're getting it all done!

DeeDee

I am no expert and in particular I have no knowledge of the US school system, so feel free to ignore me but I would prioritize getting the class she will spend the vast majority of her time with correct over special ed services. If she's happy and supported at school and receiving individualized education in her classroom and you fill the gaps to me that is better than being a lost lamb in a big system so she can get some services.

I also think 2 lessons with an expert may be more use than 4 lessons with a beginner...

My DD has 43 IQ points / 83 percentile points between her VCI and her WMI. She has 10 point scatter between her highest and lowest subtests, up to 6 points of scatter between subtests within single indexes. Learning to read was agony for her and for us. It took years. She's just reading for pleasure now at 9.5 yrs. Getting the right school definitely made a huge difference and she does get good special Ed accommodations, but I think it was me learning to teach her that made the biggest difference.

You are your child's most important teacher, even if they are at school everyday.

When ds was first diagnosed with 2E issues, a psychologist mentioned he could possibly get social security supplemental because of his disability. I never persued it because I thought we made too much money. I recently went to a meeting about another aspect of children with disablities. In passing, someone mentioned that a lot of people can't received social security supplemental for their kids because of their income, but that those people could have their kids' therapies paid for. I don't know all the details because ds's therapy is minimal at this point, but it might be worth looking into. If your daughter qualified, maybe you could get the OT and Dyslexia therapy paid for.

Just back from meeting with the principal at the public school. VERY impressed by how eager she is to accommodate DD. She is thinking of assigning a teacher who has had good luck with anxious kids before and is willing to try to place DD's gifted friend in the same class so they can be enrichment partners. Agreed with the dual level reading approach and really seems to grasp the situation. Big issue is DD has a paralyzing fear of color charts used to document kids' behavior. It is one of her biggest anxiety triggers. The teacher she selected has a huge color chart in the middle of the teaching area. Another teacher is not using a color chart this year (working on acknowledging feelings, etc instead and moving away from public displays of performance level) but principal doesn't think she would be a match in other ways. With this whole complex situation it seems that the color chart is proving to be the stumbling block.

BTW first question DD asked with both public and private was "Do they have a color chart there?" It doesn't matter that she doesn't misbehave in school the chart represents a threat that she may get in trouble. I think she also feels bad for other kids who are having their colors changed. There was a physical change in her demeanor when she asked at the private and the K1 teacher told her that they don�t use them.
Anyone else have experience with this?

Pemberley-- oh, gosh, yes. Our kindergarten teacher had something like that. I think it was "sunny status" or "cloud status." It is NOT a good classroom management technique. Nor is it state of the art.

Here's why: an anxious, overthinking kid (say, like mine, or yours) doesn't even always get WHY they were moved to cloud status (or red, whatever). They just know they're in trouble; they don't know how long they will be there; they don't know if there's anything they can do to get out of trouble; and they don't know if a further hammer blow is coming (what if I go lower than red? will I be kicked out of class?). They imagine the worst, and it distracts them from real learning AND puts them in distress at the same time. And yes, as you noted, for a fearful child it's not just about them-- any child getting their color changed is enough to wreck them mentally and emotionally.

For these kids, this kind of system just leads to more anxiety. It's pretty horrible.

What is needed is a positive reinforcement system. Our teacher from last year had a "thank you jar"-- if a child did something (anything) good, they could write their name on a thank you ticket and put it in the jar. A ticket would be pulled for various privileges like line leader-- if you did a lot of good things it upped your chances at the cool jobs. By the second week of the school the children were eating out of her hand; they would have done anything for her. Basically, just from being thanked and noticed when they did the right thing.

(The color change chart is also bad behavioral psychology even for non-troubled children: it rewards bad behavior with attention and neglects good behavior altogether. Very shabby IMO.)

I don't know what to suggest in terms of negotiations with the principal and teachers-- teachers HATE it when you mess with their classroom management techniques, and a principal will always back up the teacher's right to choose their technique-- but yes, this could be a stressful situation for your DD.

So sorry your DD is in this anxious place.

DeeDee

I agree with DeeDee on all counts, including, unfortunately that it's the teacher's right to choose. You can try giving a book such as 'The Inner Wealth Initiative: The Nurtured Heart Approach for Education' Howard Glasser and Tom Grove
which goes on on this topic in great detail - in hows and whys.

Alternatively - you may have to adress this topic directly with DD. Sounds terrible, but you may want to make a 'silly color wheel' with non-sequiturs colors such as 'Rainbow' 'Lavender' and 'Plaid' and hang it up and see how much humor can be created around it. You can give your child a timer, and ask her to order you around for 5 minutes and then move the color wheel to a silly color and explain why you 'deserved' that. You can ask her to list some 'intermediate steps' of new home color wheels until she finally works up the nerve to use a red,yellow and green one at home.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desensitization_(psychology) for more info - but remember to go for lots of humor and overexaggeration. I would treat it like any other fear - find the edge where it's funny instead of 'shut down' -causing. Maybe a blank color wheel that says "I love you" on each segment to start with. If she is willing to talk about her perfect color wheel,the best ideas will come from her own mind.

It's a thought anyway.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that now that you know how downright dangerous schools can be for gifties, you don't have to commit to finishing the year in any particular classroom. You don't have to tell her that, but just you knowing it in your bones will ease the whole situation.

Love and more love,
Grinity

During third grade DD had a teacher who used one of these public shaming systems. DD never got in trouble but she was terrified of getting a "pink dot." It exacerbated all of her perfectionist tendencies and created anxiety where we hadn't seen it before (or since). She was so afraid to make a mistake that her teacher the following year spent half the year getting her to take risks again. I would avoid that situation like the plague.

Pemberly,
This might be a good way to bridge the topic with your teacher. I think it's ok to bend the truth and pretend that Knute is a good friend with a daughter who really reminds you of your daughter, and tell knute's story as a way to communicate:
1) you aren't the only person in the world like this
2) this bad outcome can really happen
3) kids 'just like' your dd really do exist


I almost wouldn't call that kind of reframe lying - I would call it 'translating' into a frame of reference that the teacher is likely to be able to absorb without a lot of pain. I really do believe that many families with unusually gifted kids face issues that are so unusual that it is nescessary and proper do this level of lying. I wish it wasn't that way - I love facts and being grounded. But I also like sticking to the main point and communicating effectively.

Reminds me of seeing a book on my local Library's shelf called:
"When you believe it, you'll see it."
That is how the human mind operates most of the time.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

All good advice here. I just want to make one suggestion. No matter what you decide have the district finish all the testing and have an IEP drawn up -- with your concerns included. Does your state have gifted under Special Ed? This gives you a tool if: A) you go to the private school and you need discussion points, or 2)if you stay (or return later) in public school and have a legal document to work with.

I have drafted and redrafted an email to the school psych who is writing the IEP quoting folks here as "other parents I have met who also have 2E kids with anxiety issues" and then I remove that section thinking I don't want to get too bogged down. It just seems SO OBVIOUS that these things are a bad idea. How does someone go about trying to explain the obvious????

I had asked to have the color chart issue included in the IEP but was told that they could not dictate something that is considered a "classroom wide" behavior management tool. On the other hand her IEP includes language about her requiring positive reinforcement and these charts are most definitely in the category of negative reinforcement - right?

I awoke in a panic last night with the thought that all of this work is going to fall apart when DD walks into the classroom the first time and sees this thing. I HAVE to find a way to get them to address this - but how?

Pemberley, do you otherwise firmly believe that this teacher is a good fit? How firmly? How inappropriate is the other teacher-- and, not having seen them teach, how do you know?

If you think your DD *really* belongs in that teacher's classroom, then Grinity's "desensitization" plan above might work. If you do this, work at it daily between now and school, and visit the classroom at least once (preferably more) before the first day and have her lay eyes on, touch, play with the chart. I think that's your best shot if you need her to be placed there.

However: I'd want to be darn sure of the principal's reasons for NOT placing her with the other teacher. Are that teacher's classroom management strategies any better?

Hm.

DeeDee

We noticed that the principal wanted us out of that other teacher's classroom as quickly as possible and seemed very uncomfortable that she happened to be there as we came by. Then last night I got a message from another parent saying that we do not want this teacher under any circumstance and the parent used 7 exclamation points to make her point. I take that as pretty emphatic. (Something about her son having been bullied in that classroom last year and the teacher being totally ineffective in addressing it.)

Of the other options 1 is new to the school and the principal is very uncomfortable putting DD with a teacher that she can't vouch for. The last option is a young teacher who has been there only 1 year. She is quite young and uses a cute color chart with a bee theme (i.e. each child is a bee and the colors are in the shapes of hives but at least the focal point is the green hive - much larger and in front. The red hive is the smallest and is behind the other 2.) When we tried to talk to her she just smiled and said "Oh yes, I use color charts" "Uh-huh, I use color charts."

The 2E expert says that unless we can use the portion of our IEP that requires positive reinforcement to convince the teacher to alter her approach we are basically stuck. She couldn't think of any way around it except to help DD get over it.

I am desperately afraid to try to desensitize her ourselves - she has been having such a relaxed, anxiety free summer I just don't have the heart to get her all stressed out again. The private will likely mean less LD help than she needs. Not a great solution but if she is paralyzed by anxiety at the public she won't be learning much anyway, right? Of course if they have been made aware that this is a trigger and we have requested an accommodation for it I can only assume they would be held responsible if she reacts. That won�t be much consolation while dealing with a panicked 6 year old though�

Actually in behavioural psychology speak this isn't negative reinforcement...it is a response cost system.

Negative reinforcement is if you are getting a stimulus (food, pain, whatever) and that stops when you do a behavior....so if you are being pinched by someone and you say "uncle" and the pinching stops that was negative reinforcement.

Response cost is like getting fined, losing a level, etc. And can be a type of punishment.

Punishment is funny because the behavior actually has to reduce or stop the behavior or else it isn't punishment....if the same kid is on red day after day after day....then it isn't very effective. If some kids only randomly get on red then maybe they just made a mistake or needed more information or instruction on how to handle that. And chances are the kids who are always on green would behave without the color system altogether.

I have big problems with the stupid color systems and my son is also an anxious one too.

I haven't hit send yet but I just drafted an email to the admissions director at the private turning them down. I am so sad - I feel like I am setting DD up for another stressful year and feel just so awful about it...

Pemberley, don't burn bridges with anybody-- even as you state the plan as it has to be for now, let them know how much you admire what they're doing and your reasons for your current choice. You never know when things might change, and more allies in the world can help.

You're doing a great job considering all paths. Please don't be discouraged.

DeeDee

I feel really anxious about giving advice in such a big decision. But if this is how youare feeling :


Then please dont send it until you have thought some more. I don't remember any big decisione where I followed my instincts about my kids and regretted it. I can think of many where I believed "experts".

If she gets stressed out during the process then it isn't working properly and it's time to hire someone with experience to do it. It has to be very very gentle. I've got dieting on the mind, but it can't be a crash diet, it has to be a barely noticeable balancing of one's eating and moving so that the weight comes off very slowly, and yet there has to be some movement in the positive direction.

What would it take to move so slowly that lots of laughter comes out of her. That is a sign that the fears are gently moving away. Eventually there will be a tantrum followed by a calm sweetness. That's how you know it's working.

You have to talk to your DD - such as "A friend of mine has a daughter in a classroom with a color chart, and it makes the daughter very sad. Do you have any ideas how to improve the color chart so the girl won't be so sad?"

Then based on what she says, you can start very gently - maybe you want to have a chart for your behavior and she is the one who moves it? (do you have any habits you are trying to break? It could be specific) Maybe you want to make a big art project about how much we hate color charts so that everyone who sees it will understand?

My husband used to pretend to be afraid of Pikachew when DS was about 4 - I have no idea why, but he liked making it funny about "You aren't going to show me that yellow guy with the zig-zag tail, are you?" DS would try to scare him and laugh and laugh. Fears are part of every child's life, but when they limit important activities, like going to school then they are a problem.

This whole post sounds exhausting - what about homeschooling for a year instead?

And can you talk about the dyslexia thing some more - I'm still totally not get getting why you belief that she actually has issues, and it wasn't just a test artifact of the anxiety....

Someone on the DYS email lists recently asked a similar question about Dyslexia, and another mom suggested (I removed all the personal information:)

the family may want to contact some local reading specialists and see if they might find someone who is trained in a variety of methods They may be able to find someone with reasonable rates through the International Dyslexia Association. They have provider lists by state on their website www.interdys.org. They also have branches in individual states, which may have more recommendations.

I think that part of the reason you are so upset is that last year was so bad. But I think that the other part is that neither option of PS with color chart nor Private with financial strain is working for you. Perhaps time to go back to the drawing board and think of more options?

such as -
Homeschool for a year and let the pubic school provide their special ed services.
Private school on a trial basis so you can dump it mid year if it isn't working out.
Private school without the expensive dyslexia help, and look for dyslexia help on your own.
Can anyone else think of other alternatives?

Hope that helps
Grinty

I have not sent the message yet - I worded it very carefully i.e. we really want to be "Name of Private parents" one day soon but that right now we need to see exactly what kind of services we would have to put together in order to have her succeed there. I explained that if DD needs the OG services more than 2 days per week plus we have to purchase assistive technology ourselves all in addition to their tuition (they did not give us a financial aid award) the total expenses would be too much for us to undertake. Hopefully I drafted it in a way that does not burn bridges...

I totally agree about the gut instinct and that is why I have been so upset since seeing the large color chart in the suggested classroom. It was like getting a big punch right in my "mom gut." I just know that DD will be stressed out. I also feel that I will lose her trust if after letting her visit the private with its assurance that she would not have to worry about it that I instead placed her in a classroom with a big one looming over her.

On a brighter note I chatted online with a friend last night who is good friends with the new "mystery" teacher and her description makes it sound like a GREAT fit. She will confirm today but feels certain that mystery teacher "would never use a color chart - it's just not her classroom style." She then described a teacher with 15 year experience, who is warm and nurturing - even brings her guitar to class. She is married to the ranger at a local park so very nature oriented. Music (any kind of performing really) and nature are 2 of DD's passions so it sounds like a perfect fit. I got off the computer and actually slept 8 solid hours last night - I haven't done that since this whole process began. I take that to mean that this really could be a solution...

Will keep you posted.

PS: By the way I emailed the school psych drafting the IEP and strongly requested (some might say insisted but I hope I came across nicer than that) that the color chart be mentioned in the IEP since it is a major trigger and works against the "positive reinforcement" clause. Have to decide if I refuse to sign off on it if it is not there...

Just back after taking a short vacation. It helped to get away and get some clarity on the situation. Of course I kept getting phone calls from people who were uncovering new information for me:) The OG tutor from the private actually checked out the special ed teacher from the public and called to give me a glowing report. The friend who knows the new mystery teacher called to give me more details about her classroom management techniques and confirmed that she does not use a color chart after speaking to her directly about it. Another friend called after attending a birthday party with several parents from the public and gave me a detailed report card about each of the teachers there. This confirmed the very negative report about the one teacher we met when visiting the school last week.

Yesterday DH called the principal at the public and explained that after all of our research we are feeling very comfortable with the idea of the new teacher. He explained what we had been told about her teaching style and classroom management techniques and how she seemed like the best option for having DD succeed. The principal made clear to him that SHE would be making the decision soon and we would be informed what SHE decides.

So after digesting this we have decided that we will go ahead and enroll DD in the public and step back to allow the principal to do what she thinks is best. We will also plan to hold her and the school district accountable for providing a free and appropriate education. If the first thing they do is place her in a classroom where she will be exposed to one of her biggest anxiety triggers while another appropriate classroom without this trigger is available (and was requested) then we will seek reimbursement for any expenses we face in providing a learning environment without the anxiety triggers. In other words if we end up having to enroll her in the private because of the anxiety issues we will pursue all the legal channels described upthread. We have also decided that we will not sign off on the IEP if it does not specifically mention the color chart issue.

Last night DD's preschool teacher called, she has become a close friend and loves DD like her own child. She is also close friends with the special ed teacher at the public and had a long talk with her about DD. She has offered to come with us to school on our "pre-visit" to help make DD comfortable as she meets her new teachers, sees her classroom, etc. Hopefully all will go well. My fear is that DD will just refuse to go back if she sees a color chart on her first visit before school starts. I guess I will have to leave up to the school to figure out how to undue that damage if it happens. Hard to accept but I think that is what the situation boils down to.

Thanks so much for all the help and insightful comments as I have sorted through all of this. Holding my breath, crossing my fingers, standing on one foot and doing everything else I can think of to hope this situation works out well!

That is wonderful news - above and beyond the call of duty for the OG tutor.

So now is the time to develop the timeline and paper trail. If you husband spoke in person, then it's time to write a letter detailing what was requested for what reasons, which experts agree with you, and that the principle is going to make her best decision based on the best interests of the child as she sees it.
One of those: "I was hoping you could check to be sure that what we heard is what you said" letters, with a "please get back to me and let me know any misunderstanding that might have developed, I want to work closely with you so we can do what's right for DD as a team."

That way you are 'iron clad' for documentation purposes and she has a chance to see the 'you mean business' - polite but firmly devoted to your DD.

Excellent. If child's problem is anxiety - such as snakes - would she be placed in a room with a snake tank? Even if it was a classroom-wide learning experience? Probably not.

That sounds right. You can't take responsibility for their decisions. It's possible that your DD will be placed in the excellent known teacher with the color chart, and somehow be able to not be bothered by it. Kids are amazing. My Uncle had a 'Elmer Fudd' type of speech impediment. The way he tells it, nothing helped to cure it, until one day he met his new teacher who also had an 'Elmer Fudd' speech impediment. The teacher introduced himself to the class, and my uncle told us: "I knew that if the new teacher heard the way I talked, he would think I was mocking him, and that fear just cured my speech problems instantly. I never spoke with a speech impediment again."

I'm not suggesting that approach, but trying to gently remind that human beings are very mysterious, and we never know if our very reasonable fears are going to occur or not.

But document everything!!!

Smiles,
Grinity

Pemberley, I think your strategy is well considered and smart. I hope you'll let us know how things go this fall!

BTW, Grinity is right about documentation. Get a large, heavy duty binder and start putting everything in it, chronological order. This includes your notes in ink regarding each conversation you have, labeled with the date and all parties' names, as well as any diagnostic reports and such. Having records is a great help as you do a complicated negotiation that will likely run over some months or years.

Well done!

DeeDee

I am now officially "cautiously optimistic" about the coming school year. We just found out that DD has been placed in the classroom we requested!

I have to say that the public really does seem to be doing all they can to make this work as well as possible for DD. After last year I was expecting the worst but have been very pleasantly surprised so far. Will keep you posted.

Do keep us posted. I hope it works!

DeeDee

Just back online after a 5 day power outage courtesy of Hurricane Irene. Start of school was delayed until next week but we were able to go in the other day and meet the classroom teacher and special ed teachers. All I can say is I am SO relieved! The classroom teacher indeed seems like an absolutely perfect match and all are bending over backwards to accommodate DD. Not a hint of anxiety - she is actually head-over-heels excited about school. They really seem to get it - the anxiety, the learning difficulties and the giftedness. I am amazed but very, very happy. The special ed teachers plan to wait a couple of weeks until they build her trust and then do some retesting to see if they can get an accurate gauge on what is true LD and what was triggered by school/test anxiety.

So far I think we have made a good decision. It helps to know that the private is still out there as an option but at this point I am thinking we won't need it.

Hope everyone else also has a positive start to the school year.

Awesome, Pemberley! Wishing you a safe launch into the year.

DeeDee

Wonderful news!

Yippee!

Also very happy to see hear that you made it through the storm relatively unscathed.

I need a bit of advice...

The school year got off to a GREAT start. DD was excited about school and was her old happy-go-lucky self. Not a hint of anxiety and everyone telling me how wonderful she is. We started seeing the first hints of some anxiety by Friday afternoon but not sure why. When I mentioned it to the special ed teacher the school jumped all over it. A call from the social worker, notes and emails from the classroom teacher, etc. I couldn't ask for more.

Then I found out that DD will not be working with the "fabulous" special ed teacher we had been told about and the OG tutor verified was wonderful. That teacher's schedule is full so they have assigned DD to the other special ed teacher. When we were on the fence about public vs private this fabulous special ed teacher was the main argument everyone used for sending her to the public. The district wanted DD with an OG trained teacher and was going to bring someone to the school to work with her until they found out this teacher was going through the OG training this past summer. In other words she was absolutely perfect.

I decided to stick to my plan and let the district do what they think is best but continue to document, document, document in case it doesn't work. Now however I found out that she isn't really working the other special ed teacher either - she is working with her student teacher. This is so far from the "fabulous" OG trained teacher we were told she would have I just can't believe it. She spent her time with him the other day sounding out the word "cat". Cat was the first word DD learned how to spell when she was 3 and certainly didn't need to work on sounding it out. When I asked DD if she told the teacher that she knew the word she said she didn't get the chance "He told me to sound it out so that's what I did."

So do I continue to sit back and let the school do what it wants while I document it or do I make a fuss? Is having her work with the student teacher ok? Do I take the decision to have her work with the student teacher when they haven't yet gotten a handle on what DD's true abilities are an indication that this second special ed teacher is really not a good match for the situation? I don't want to undermine my relationship with the school or the special ed teacher she was assigned but I am not feeling very confident about the situation.

Thanks for any ideas or input.

Emm. Is it too late for the private school? Many private schools accept kids after school starts.

Otherwise, did the school tell you that your daughter would be working with the really good special ed teacher? If they did, it might be helpful to remind them.

As for the sounding out of c-a-t, I would lose no time and go talk to the OG trained teacher (NOT the student teacher) immediately. Be honest and gently assertive. Ask them to test her. Ask them to test beyond grade level. Get the general idea of what will be on the test so you can prepare her for it ("Will she be reading and answering questions? Will she have to write stuff? etc.). I know that any test prep has a bad reputation around here, but it's critical to avoid surprises on a test. Little kids can shut down if things aren't right. If you claim she's gifted and then she doesn't do well on the test because something about it surprised her and scared her, you'll have trouble convincing them about her after that.

It seems so right to let people who seem to be experts run the show. This course often seems to be best, and being a pain is no fun. But at the same time, sometimes it's better to be assertive. A lot of teachers/administrators don't think past grade level, for example. It's been my experience that this idea just doesn't occur to them (not ALL of them, just MANY of them). Remember, HG+ kids are rare, and schools are focused on low performers.

Random anecdote: after my son had been offered a grade skip a few years ago (skip 3rd, start 4th in the fall), they gave him a 3rd grade math book to do. This was in the spring. They wanted him to work through the book so that he wouldn't be confused in 4th grade. It was trivial for him: he was already finishing 5th grade math and messing with algebra at that point. At a conference, his teacher told me, in a surprised tone, "He's doing very well; I actually think he might even be able to do stuff past the 3rd grade level!" I had spent the autumn in meetings asking if there was there anything they could do to help him work at his level in math. This teacher was at those meetings and had looked at the work he had done. Yet the message wasn't getting through. Sorry to say that this problem has repeated itself a few times since then with other teachers.

So my advice is to push gently but hard and get stuff in writing (at a public school or a private one). When you rely on a conversation, they may say something that you interpret the wrong way and vice-versa. Everyone sees the world through the lens of their own circumstances, and what seems so obvious to one party is not obvious to another. Example: everyone will tell you that Mrs. X is the best special ed teacher ever! You will make an assumption that she will teach your child, perhaps not knowing that she's oversubscribed or maybe even moving to Maine next year. From their perspective, they're just telling you about one great special ed teacher at a school that has three other special ed teachers. They aren't making a promise that she'll teach your child; they're just stating a fact about the school.

It's maddening to feel forced to drill down to a level of detail including, "And will she teach my child next year? Precisely what will she teach?" But sometimes you have to. My rambling advice is to pick the stuff that you're willing to leave up to fate and pick the stuff that's most important, and focus on the latter. Get details and get stuff in writing.

HTH.

Am I right in understanding that the special ed teacher currently assigned is NOT OG-trained? (Let alone the student teacher...)

If so, I think you go back to the principal and nicely say that most things are going very well (and thanks for the great teacher placement and so on) but that you are concerned about your DD's reading instruction. Appropriate instruction for a dyslexic usually means a highly-trained OG teacher.

If they can't manage to reassign the qualified teacher to your DD, they need to hire someone qualified. If they really are resistant, say the words "free, appropriate, public education" (FAPE)-- it's the legal acronym that means your DD is entitled to have her actual needs met. You might do a little reading on Wrightslaw to give you confidence.

I'm glad all else is going swimmingly. Because of that, I suggest you look at this as a solvable problem, because it will encourage the school to do the same. If they say "impossible," keep asking for "appropriate"-- you may want to have scientific literature on hand that backs up the need for OG, which shouldn't be hard to find.

If they still say "impossible," perhaps you might talk to a special ed advocate as your next step?

DeeDee

Pemberley - it's great that you are documenting. It's my experience that 'things change' and it's you job to keep the communication flowing back from the child to the school so that they can keep their complicated picture up to date.

The first thing that you want to communicate is how she is doing social/emotionally. So if the anxiety kind of went away after last Friday, let them know that. If it's continues let them know that too.

2nd type of useful communication connects the anxiety to what you think the solution might be. So if the anxiety seems to be connected to the student special ed teacher - and CAT - let them know that. Since you don't really know what is the cause, it won't be difficult to present this as 'one possible part of the puzzle' and that won't offend anyone.

They really want to help.

Love and More Love
Grinity

I spoke with the director of special ed for the town and explained my concerns about the student teacher, i.e. I don�t mind a student teacher working with DD once the qualified teachers finish assessing her and can provide appropriate guidance but I am uncomfortable with how it has been handled so far. She will talk to the actual special ed teacher about my concerns and encouraged me to speak with her directly as well. I said that I will give it some time for them to work it all out but I don�t want to go too far down the wrong path while we are still trying to dig out from the damage caused last year. The other day DD said she worked with the actual teacher and the student teacher together so I am encouraged. As long as her anxiety isn�t triggered we�re doing well.

Both the director of special ed and the fabulous teacher told me that OG is just the new fancy term for what they were taught as undergrads in the 1970's so the formal training is not needed. Not sure I buy that but it is what both told me last week. I am, of course, documenting.

Oddly both the teacher and the director of special ed seem shocked that I even knew that a student teacher was working with DD or that he had her sounding out �cat�. I just ask DD about what she did in school that day and put the pieces together - not sure why that would seem so surprising�

Thanks all. Will keep you posted.

This sounds good, Pemberley. It sounds as though they are on alert that you are paying attention, and they're responding to your complaints, yet you haven't made them mad. Fine place to be for now, as they work out the kinks.

I'd say, as long as her anxiety isn't triggered AND she's getting appropriate instruction, things sound good.

Well done!

DeeDee

This is the essence of getting things done. Enumerate what will be done and ensure it matches the overall strategy.

Thanks you for the post.

We had our meeting to update the IEP yesterday and things are continuing to go well. The student teacher leaves at the end of this week so DD will be working with the actual special ed teacher starting next week. They are changing the timing of her pull out and will be working on sight words. I assume this is progress. The classroom teacher said that she was able to confirm some of my reports about testing inaccuracies (one time she assessed 1/5 and 3/5 vowel sounds but another time tested at 5/5 for both long and short vowels) but the special ed teacher seemed a bit surprised - she hasn't seen that sort of inconsistency. She did report that DD had read "fluently" for her one time, though. I think bit by bit they will get to an accurate read on her. If not she'll keep getting lots of extra attention...

They are now adding pull out time for math as well. This surprised us because on her testing she was "high average" - just shy of "superior". She has always "missed" the numbers 13 and 15 when counting so I think it is probably a good idea.

They brought in the school OT and asked her to work with DD - this was a big relief because we tried all last year to get OT in school and kept hitting a brick wall. It's interesting that this request was what led to the whole eval, 2E discovery, complicated IEP, etc and now we are finally getting that component added in. They are also going to have her evaluated by a speech pathologist. I had been told her speech was difficult to understand because she was using such advanced vocabulary - developmentally she was not necessarily ready for such complex words. We discussed that she always dropped her first consonant sounds when learning new words so it made sense to me that she tested as having trouble with initial word sounds. Maybe this is somehow a piece of the puzzle too.

All agree that she is happy as can be at school - no problems with anxiety. The school social worker is meeting with her once a week to help with coping strategies for when things arise. All good.

All these added components are why we had trouble deciding between public and private over the summer. I guess they confirm that we made the right decision - I'm not sure how it all would have been addressed if we had gone to the private school. Probably lots of extra expenses for the services.

I realize that I will have to keep pushing for enrichment to meet her comprehension needs. They don't have a formal mechanism for it in 1st grade so it is up to the classroom teacher. She is more than willing to provide differentiated instruction but I'm not sure she gets the extent to which it is needed. I made clear that I am going to insist on it so hopefully it will work as we move forward.

I thanked everyone profusely for having created a situation that is "better than best case scenario" and they said that it was my providing such detailed information for them that allowed them to make the transition so successful. I guess that is part of the message to share here - don't be shy when advocating for your child. Tell them what they need to know - use examples and make specific requests. A lot depends on your school and it's policies - I did not have a lot of luck last year at the big city magnet but I also learned from that experience to be insistent. It seems to be working at the local public - at least so far. Will keep you posted.

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughtful advice as we were trying to figure this all out. I can't tell you how much you helped!

This is good news indeed. I hope your DD continues to do well.
Did they ever do the LD testing so see if her reading difficulties were from anxiety or a learning challenge?

Hi Grinity:

The anxiety basically disappeared when her learning environment improved. She is her happy-go-lucky old self and everyone is just delighted to be working with her. She is still working below grade level in both reading and writing so I don't think there is any question about the existence of significant learning disabilities. She is steadily improving and does really well with one-on-one attention so I guess I don't mind if she still isn't showing them all she is capable of doing. I think it's better to make small, incremental progress starting from the basics than risk missing some piece of the puzzle.

They are finally bringing in some OT help, which is how all of this started. We have also decided that we need to get a neuropsych eval so we can be really, truly certain of what she needs. It is a big relief to have a school that believes in her, understands that she has some significant issues to overcome and is actually eager to try to meet her needs. I don't know what the future will hold but for now I hope we are meeting her needs.