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This is a classic Overthinking-mama post. There's no problem in sight, I'm just trying to get some ideas about where to go from here, and you guys actually think about things

DS 2:2 went to summer camp this week. It's the first time he's done a regular daycare type arrangement. It was 2 hrs/day for 5 days. In many ways, it went as I would have predicted, but there were surprises as well. Because we're currently looking for part-time daycare for him for September or October, I'm looking for all the advice I can get. On anything, no matter how tenusously related

As predicted: He LOVED day 1. Desperately wanted to go back for day 2. Did not want to return after that. Went today reasonably happily because I told him it was the last day and you never want to miss the LAST DAY. He had a lot of questions for me, about the room they were in, the stuff they did, etc. It was clear from these questions that the counsellors did not answer his questions very completely or consientiously. I suspect they did not understand his speech well enough to realize what he was saying. By the end of the week they described him as "quiet and very well behaved." They also noted his vehemence on a number of issues, each time it sounded like they were a little taken aback by it. One of these was something he brought up with me... His version: He had questions about the fire truck they toured, and didn't get a chance to ask any at all. Their version: He had a real tantrum when asked to leave the fire truck, but calmed down quickly. There was an ongoing food issue. His version: he ate a couple of bites of his snack but wasn't hungry. Their version: He really didn't want to eat (gah oh no & he was VERY vehement), but ate it all in the end. I'm a little mystified by that one... why would they lie? (He never snacks with me, just 3 meals, he's never hungry and I gave up offering a long time ago. I just carry some food incase he asks).

Surprising: He did a LOT of doing as he was told. I was snooping at one point, and saw them call him back from playing with something to the circle. He resisted a little, but then planted himself directly infront of the presenter and made the biggest little effort I've ever seen to sing every word and do every motion just so, for the rest of the circle. It was an "is that my kid?" moment. It was also a bit surreal, because all the other kids were just kinda zoneing out on the carpet. Anyway, I thought it was an insanely mature solution for a 2 yr old to come up with... almost too mature? Also the toys were... odd. I'd have thought they were c. 6mo aged, mostly, with dollhouses added. And there weren't very many of them. No trains, only a couple of cars, no puzzles, except I think I saw a 4 peice shapes peg puzzle. No big gross motor toys at all, except the parachute. A lot of art supplies, but the projects were very prescriptive, and DS didn't even know what two of them were supposed to be for (he asked me when he gave them to me).



I'm getting used to him being described as "very well behaved" now, but it still seems wierd

I'm thinking we should look for 2 or 3 mornings a week and not more than that, since he seemed under-stimulated being in the same room all week. And I think we need to focus on staff who listen carefully and answer questions well. It bugs me that he got quieter as the week went on (we know from SLP that hsi articulation is average, but his expressive language is.. not, and that he's already developing a lot of behaviors that resemble an older kid with an articulation disability) Also, I think maybe less enforcment of seat-time. I was quite put off when he asked me about the decor of the room, since it seemed like he'd asked why there were letter and number train posters and so on, and neither gotten answers nor any reference to the posters in any other context... So... why WERE they there? At least answer questions about them! Or take them out, I don't think it's necesary to have them in a 2yr room.

Ok, everyone, throw some spagetti at the wall, let's see what sticks

I guess I'm trying to get my head around what type of environment to look for for him. I want him to be comfortable, and not bored, and to have some social time without me.

-Mich

From other bits you wrote, it sounds like he was exploited the possibilities of the environment by the end of that second day. There was probably nothing new for him to do. I would definately be looking for something with a really enriched environment, and it should be changed on a regular basis as it sounds like doing the same thing day after day isn't going to appeal.



Umm, he's two right? Had they spent any time with two year olds prior to working there? Not wanting to leave the fire engine sounds like completely normal two year old behaviour to me! (Or is this a case of weird standards?) That goes double for seat time!

Describing him as very well behaved worries me a little and I'm not sure I can articulate very well why it does, so please take this in the nicest interpretation possible.There is a child who is atypical and obviously trying so hard to impress them and yet they haven't even noticed his questions - it just lights up something in my brain going "warning, warning!" LOL!

Is my interpretation that this isn't the same place that you were thinking of sending him for long-term correct?




Is it just the jaded pessimistic misanthrope in me who answers "So parents think the children will actually learn something"? It is just me? Ok then, its there to make the room look pretty.

Sorry, I just got carried away there.

I think an enriched environment, and adults who are actually listening would help.

To be fair, he confuses people who speak 2 yr old pretty consistently -- his average sentance length is about 11 words, and he commonly uses non-standard constructions. One of today's gems "Probably it's important to take me to the bathroom right now, [name]'s bladder has something in it." The pronoun excitement is almost as bad as his tendency to specify degrees of confidence to within an inch of their lives. So is the stuttering, and the fact that he speaks completely flatly whenever he's having trouble getting words out... and the bit about equating inaudibility with politness. Oh and occasional intrusive dead language vocabulary along with more run of the mill archaisms & neologisms. I can't claim none of this is my fault. Asking if his bladder was full seemed like such a good idea at the time.... So did practicing dead language pronouns by sticking them into english sentences, and reading old poetry together.... And I really thought it would be good for him to learn "thee" and "thou" constructions while he was still in the early language window... oops.

But yeah, I think a place that can listen is important... I haven't had an experience like yours, where someone really did listen comfortably. His best two babysitters are both pretty good, but that's after practice, and the teenager is into archaisms to begin with. Despite the "normal" articulation, I think strangers typically understand maybe 10% of what he says, if that. The SLP said 90%, but that was on words she asked him to say or elicited carefully (and she remarked that it was hard to get him to use the typical toddler words... she never did get "done," but she got about 6 synonyms).

I really don't think he needs anything academic at this point. I just need time with the new baby & he needs consistent friendships, which I'm not good at supporting.

And I am a little... aware of the language thing. I think he really thrives on talk & it's really hard because his language is so atypical. It's not at all uncommon for people to assume he's not talking yet, becasue they read his long sentences as babble. The language thing isn't precicely a problem, but it's a bit isolating. Being able to express himself comfortably is one of my main concerns for an ongoing placement.

-Mich.
PS: He was trying to get out of bedtime a few minutes ago and said "I like rotating!" a lot (while rotating)... it took ME about 17 tries before I figured out what he was saying.

I would look for someplace that seems undercontrol, not too loud or wild. Small student/teacher ratio is beneficial.

My children were in a Montessorri Type preschool. Many of the projects were open ended. Children did some learning that was at their level and some group. There were jobs for the kids to do to take care of the class room. Other benefits - tie with nature, promote self motivation, community, ect. When a child brought the teacher a drawing/art type present, she would ask them to tell her about it and listen. Also, teachers didn't baby the kids.

Ask around for reccomendations. Best of Luck.

Geomamma: I think his vehemence might be notable more for what it is *not*... basically, he wasn't tantrumming, just being very clear about his intentions!

This place only runs daycare type programmes in the summer and other holiday times, because it's government it all matches the school terms, despite being a pre-school place. We will probalby do some sports there in the fall, but it's mostly 30 min mom&tot stuff until he's 3. So, yah, not in the running for an ongoing thing.

There's a co-op daycare that sounds like a good possibility, but DH saw it, not me, and DH is not the world's best describer. I also have an aquantance who might take him in a home daycare. A nanny is not impossible, but I really think the best thing in it for him is social time and stable friendships. I'm a bit worried about age ranges, since I think the stable friendships thing might work best with 3 yr olds. His best friend at the camp was 3. And then there's the other c. 5999 daycares in our city . Just gotta sort out what exactly we WANT

He's getting the "well behavied" thing a lot now. And it does sometimes make me wonder a bit. I don't have anything useful to say about that. Just, thanks for noting it. I note your notation

-Mich

Hi mich
Really weird you ask this question today because I was having quite a moment about DS 5's summer camp. We had issues with his schools placement although not at first. He started at 2.5 and when signed him up at 2 I didn't know he was advanced, or as advanced. I didn't know what we did was unusual, kind of silly in retrospect, although his big explosion of development came between 3.5 and 4.5. So we chose "the best" place in our area. It was "academic" And in a lot of ways the school was great. In the 2.5 class it was 3 hours, 3 x a week and the day was really about playing with others, lining up, going to the bathroom, music, etc. The teachers were very attentive and caring.we got a lot of comments about "the things he says" they were much more
"adult" he would tell them about cooking shows and books and things, but also very elaborately. I don't think he was bored then but who knows he could really articulate the concept. He always wanted to go. Their bulletin boards were filled with the kids work and the introduced letters and numbers etc. But things change the next year
as the distance between his abilities and the other kids just grew and grew and as the
kids really moved from parallel play to playing together it became much more noticeable that what he liked to do and talk about was different than the kids. And this got much much worse in year 3, his pre k year. They were academic they did books, and letters and numbers and worksheets. But they also felt that DS social skills were
a problem and there goal was not to teach him letters or numbers, he was reading, but to get him to be more like the other kids. It was so disheartening and it took me a long time to realize that the teacher had no appreciation for the different box that DS was in. Fast forward today, new camp in the "best" nursery school in our new area and wow what a difference. They love his differences and rather than asking him to conform they are showing him how to handle when other kids don't understand him. I almost cried talking to the counselor.

I do think though there is a big difference between camp and school even in nurserry settings, DS went to camp at his old school too and it was run by different people and so had a different style. I hated the old camp, even if we hadn't moved we weren't going back because they didn't have trained educators in charge they had college kids. In his current camp, there are two head counselors who are teachers at the school and 3 college students who are in early childhood Ed as assistants. The difference is stark - the non early childhood Ed counselors didn't really know how to deal with the age, so possibly that is what you are seeing. Also probably why the boards didn't relate to what they were doing.

Your DS reminds me of mine in terms of the behavior, mine is very well behaved at school for the adults because he considers this the interesting time,its the gathering of new info which is what he lived for. So mine also sat and listened and would tell others to shush. And the following directions part, they look so different because of the following multiple step direction, most are still having trouble with that.

The buzz word I didn't know then but having been to the new camp and getting a feel for their school is individuality and unique - the new place seems to be about introducing age appropriate social concepts but by figuring out each kid they focus on what that kid needs to work on while providing fun. There is really development play here or play based learning rather than just play.

The boredom issue might always be there - the old pre k teacher was so excited to tell me DS was playing more with the other kids at center time, curious I asked DS if he had read all the books in the class,he had, so was now going to play with the kids. They had 2 sets of center time in a 6 hour day and he was SOOOO dome with it but in 3 hours they only had 1 block of it plus outdoor time.

I think you already know what to look for - adults that see the individual child, lots of toys, at varying levels, including beyond the level of the room, I would recommend a place that considers itself academic or developmentally play based, who use the language to sell what they do, mainly because they will have directed activities with goals in mind - lacing for motor skills - etc. And that will bring in the new data oddly for my DS even when he already knew what they were teaching.

So for me, the physical room is important, the flow of the day, the approach of the school, but ultimately it was the teachers and how they handle the quirky kid who prefers their company because he is totally uninterested in his peers

Wow, I keep writing these novels, not sure I provided anything useful, but I hope so

DeHe

Ha! Anything is useful. I'm just ta tryin' ta get thinkin'

DS did "associative play" from birth, and is already starting to do truely co-operative play. This seems to be less of a problem when parents are not around, because the kids kinda work things out for themselves, and DS will only accept "no" from the kid themselves, if a parent says he shouldn't tackle their kid, he's like "wha'cha on about, let her tell me if she don't like it" <sigh>. He likes kids of all ages, and will prefer whoever is paying hte most attention to him, which is often the younger kids, whom he can entertain, and the older kids, who will play with him, but rarely the kids in his current age group, who tend to be into parrallel play & saying "mine" a lot.

I'm shy of a lot of directed activities, that's where DS gets really annoyed (why I was so impressed when he complied with the circle time so maturely). His motor skills (fine and gross, both) are a little ahead, mainly because we let him do a lot of stuff that other kids are "protected" from, and handed a set of materials, he tries to think of all the things he can do with them, rather than wanting to do what everyone else is already doing... But I suppose I'd like to see open-ended here's an experience type activities, where figureing out all the things he can do with XYand Z is actually the adult's percieved goal.

Do academic programmes really use language at a higher level, or do they push the level they think is age appropriate? I'm worried that if they're too convinced they know what DS needs at his age, they'll have an even harder time seeing/hearing him. (I suppose we could show them the report from the SLP that says his expressive lang is c.4yrs and receptive ceilinged their tests [6rys+], but would that really make them talk to him differently? In my experience it doesn't usually sink in.

Based on the books he likes, which I can find age-associations for, ideally, they need to talk to him (answer questions etc) about the way they would with a third grader, but not an average 3rd grader, because he's 2.... so it's a big leap & not a tidy, developmentally normal "just treat him like he's older" thing... When I talk to him seriously, I use a lot of the tricks I learned dealing with adults with Aphasia.

I'm wondering where we'd be mostly likely to find people who can scale different aspects of thier communication/communicative expectations SEPERATELY.

I don't think we'll find something perfect, and I don't think we shoudl try to find something perfect, just for the record. And Frankly, I think he'll be basically fine anywhere. I just wanna do my best here

And we don't know for sure that he's ahead or gifted or whatever, although I think it's a good guess at this point. I'd be uncomfortable presenting him in that way, or asking for an older group for him, just because we really don't know. What we really KNOW about him is that his development is very atypical, and for the language stuff, we have a clear evaluation that puts him out on an extreme both in terms of being genuinely ahead on some measures, and having a pretty extreme discrepancy between measures (that's the atypical development bit).

Like I said, I'm just overthinking... but I *like* overthinking

-Mich

Is he channeling his inner Newfoundlander?? LOL!!!

Yup!

Thats my kid! (or.. Maybe I need to not listen to old episodes of Afganida while posting)

-Mich

ps: is there a subjunctive form of quotation marks? I think we need one. or at least I need one. And we wonder why he talks funny.

Hi mich
Sorry I don't think I was terribly coherent last night!!! What I meant by seeking out academic or those throwing around developmental play and other terms was not to look for those who will meet your kid on his or her academic level although that would be wonderful.i meant look for those because they will likely have lots to do and not just expect the kid to sit and play with what is in the room, they will have specific things that the kids will move through over the course of the time spent. I read on hoagies that gifted kids are often thought of as spoiled because they play with things and move on unless they develop an in-depth focus, like with trains. With my DS the interest in the room itself wore off with time spent so it was the tasks that he enjoyed because they were always something new. And I noticed from talking to friends that those schools without the buzzword focus tended to give the kids more center time.

I think you are probably right to worry about older groupings because the older kids will. not be interested in "the baby" even if the baby knows more than they do!!! What would be ideal is the sort I am seeing now with teachers interested in helping him relate to the others and the world in general but without thinking he is strange or just happy he is quiet and well behaved.

I think this great you're attentive to this now, we didn't know we needed something different but then still would have likely gone with the school we did because the problems were with the teacher and weren't visible until we were well into it.

Do you know people who went to various schools, might be able to get a feel for a school from that, at least in terms of how open they are to parents concerns

DeHe