Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Pre-school Does your child llike teacher-directed learning?

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Hi Annette,
Be careful what you wish for!
It's not that PG kids don't like teacher-directed learning, it's just that teachers of 3 year olds don't typically offer learning that is useful to a PG kid.

Be glad that he enjoys self-directed learning, some PG kids don't and end up with 'no learning at all!' Not really, but wouldn't you rather a child learn academics in a self-directed way than throw all that intensity into becoming the best at playing 'Pokemon Video Game?'

There is no way to predict the future for kids who are so far outside the norm. It's great that someone introduced you to the idea that homeschooling might be manditory - but it's way to early to know.

It's great that the school has opened their kindergarten class to your child, and if it's a half day program it might be a great place for him to learn about social skills. I don't think you should expect much from him socially - he is so young - as long as he isn't harming anyone, and is enjoying himself, and still has energy to learn when he gets home, that's as much as one can hope for.

In other words, don't prep him - let the experience come - there is no way you can create a positive reinforcer as great as a room full of kindy classmates.

What happens when you 'play school' and let him be the teacher to a bunch of stuffed animals? Do he have an basic idea of 'class rules?' (Is he potty trained?) Does he know to wash his hands before returning from the bathroom? Can you set a timer for 5 minutes and practice raising one's hand and waiting to being called on before speaking? You could play along - that would give you an idea of how much eye contact he is giving you, and how able he is to 'pause' when he wants to talk.

Try and visit a classroom with kids of similar age to the ones he'll be meeting and see what kinds of rules are in place, and what the room is like. It may be louder than he is used to, so visit loud places and practice 'loud survival.'

I don't think the kindy teacher will mind if he is off doing his own thing at the begining of the year. She will expect children not to know how to 'do school' and see it as her job to prepare them for 'real school.'

I can't tell you the times I've 'overprepared' my DS15 because my standards were way way way too high. Opps!

Love and more love,
Grinity

Ya, my DD is putting all that brain power into digging sand and dressing up. She's HG not PG but still...

Although my DD has the charming combination that she wants/needs some minor assistance/direction to learn academics but won't take direction and can't tolerate repetition either :-). I don't feel she learned a thing academically at preschool but she HAS learned to come and sit down for group time, that there are rules to be followed etc. Our preschool has a gentle but determined approach to this and it happened slowly over two years.

She did also seem to become more willing to interact with her age peers once she had finished thoroughly exploring the preschool environment in her own way and at her own pace (there was not much to actually teach her anything profound or new but it was full of none the less good quality and fun materials). Maybe it was increased maturity not running out of interest in the same materials, but to my eyes DDs path through preschool was 1) completely self driven exploration of the materials to the exclusion of anything else 2) learning to follow directions and participate fairly acceptably 3) learning to play with kids that she might not have much in common with but they could still do stuff together.

I agree with what Grinity said. At three, it's hard to say how your child will react in kindergarten or 1st grade or what level they will be at 5/6 years old. It's also true that PG kids vary widely in how they respond to their environment and school settings/expectations.

My PG son is 5.5 years old (late birthday) but I had no idea that my son was PG until he was placed in a more academic setting. My son was in a integrated, special needs program until last Thanksgiving so our situation was a little complicated but yes, I have direct experience with him being placed in a teacher-driven versus more child-driven classroom settings in two gifted schools as a pre-k student.

Our son resisted the teacher-driven, traditional gifted setting or drill-and-kill approach. He whizzed through the prek/k/1st grade curriculum within 2-3 months and we were then told that the school wouldn't accommodate him or bump him up into the 2nd/3rd grade class. It was the speed/rate that my son was accelerating through the prek/k/1st curriculum that prompted the school and teacher to say our son was very likely PG.

Since March, our son has been in a creative/gifted school where there is 28 kids from pre-k to 8th grade in a one-room, type schoolhouse. This school is more child/older student-driven/ intrinsically motivated and suits my son better. Still my son only does pre-k work since he's a pre-k student even though he was doing 2nd/3rd grade math and work at the previous gifted school, which is somewhat frustrating.

I would suggest looking around to see what the public schools will do and what your other options may be in terms of private or homeschooling. Be open to exploring your options and re-evaluating the situation if things don't work out as you envision or plan. From my experience, you have to take things in very small increments and not plan ahead more than 6-12 months.

From 4-7 years old or more - any changes to the school setting can be changed and reversed. I found this article quite helpful - http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10115.aspx

I wouldn't say that preschool was a complete disaster for us since our son was 2e and needed services but it definitely presented us with some challenges and frustrations. Our son has not always been willing to interact with age peers. He's had more success with interacting since moving to the creative/gifted school in March and able to work with older kids, but he still a control freak and tends to withdraw if he's not confident about the situation/expectations.

I don't know if this helps at all, but I second what Grinity said about kids being really sensitive to _level_ of teacher-driven instruction. Mine is only 2, and I don't even know if he's gifted (I just like this group), but he rejects leader-driven programmes directed at his age group to the point where the leaders often commiserate with me and give poorly couched "special needs" advice... But he recently found a curriculum book lying around, quickly sorted out he could't study it by himself, and almost immediately came to me to get me to, effectively, teach it to him. And I'm going to hide the darned book, because I don't like the content, and he's eating up the "being taught" part. He had a similar reaction when we started giving him sticker books almost a year ago. He also had a similar reaction when the SLP started "hothousing" his articulation a couple years above age range to match his expressive language score, and also in his swim school, the classes are semi-private, and the school caters to a noticably smart local population, and prides itself deeply on differentiation in all dimensions. So it seems to be a pattern. My primary approach to tantrums now is to start lecturing on some random topic

He hasn't really had a chance at genuine group instruction that's pitched at skills so different from age-expectations, but there have been moments where he tries to jump into a passing class... I think there's a translation problem, though, he can't just jump into a much older age class and manage, because he lacks social conventions, reading, numeracy, etc. (and doesn't get it that he's supposed to be, like, registered) But the level of stuff directed at pre-school kids leaves him glassy eyed if there isn't someone there to provide "enrichment" (yes, I have been told I'm mumbling in his ear too loudly, more than once, sigh)

First "daycamp" experience comming MONDAY... so I'm thinking about how DS is going to fit into what is basically short-term preschool, too. I have no idea what they actually mean when they call it an "enrichment" camp, but I'm hoping it at least means they do stuff with the kids, unlike the preschools I've been to to observe!

So... maybe yours will rise to it (with a little help learning the conventions) when the level of instruction is appropriate? But I haven't a clue what I'm talking about!

-Mich

OMG when you mentioned, �From day one, my son has been self-directed, intense and persistent. Even as a toddler, he had a "learning agenda" that was pursued with great passion, regardless of what the group or teacher was doing� reminded me of my son who is now 10 years old. We also had similar experiences at Gymboree.

Have you checked into Montessori schools in your area? My Ds10 has been at a Montessori for the past two years. It is a much better fit then his previous school. Montessori schools are by definition child lead, especially in the younger years. And they have classes with a minimum of a three year spread of students, some have a six year spread at my son's school. However, different Montessori schools can very greatly from each other. But you could go to them and ask how they would accommodate you son's uniqueness. The schools also welcome parent involvement and suggestions.
I have found that my son's school works with parent's suggestions very well.

Just a thought, if you find the right-fit socially and academically where the school enables your son to �plow� thru the curriculum for now.. when he is older he could do early high school/college, gap years, enrichment etc. A Montessori school can accommodate this to a certain extent much more than a traditional school is able to do, though at some point who knows???

At this age I feel that it is important that he is an environment where he is not frustrated so he does not learn bad habits or coping strategies to survive his environment. If he is in a environment were his frustrations are kept to a minimum you can tweak the environment as needed, which from reading this forum seems to be often.



Anyway just my opinion and good luck.

Honey, I think I detect 'odd yardstick-itis' in you - as I surely had when my son was 3.

It's really hard to remember that 3 year old PGlets are really 3 in some ways. But your son can't be 'recently turned 3' and 'slow to learn' potty training at the same time - Boys trained before 3 is really 'advanced.' Boys learning at 3 is normal. There are going to be times when no matter what his vocabulary or reasoning skills, he is going to be just like an average 3 year old in aspects of his maturity.

For me lots of family members were reading at age 3, and my son just wasn't there - although he knew what sound the letters made at age 2!!! That can give one an odd yardstick. Read those 'what to expect' books and try to develop 'binocular vision.'

It isn't easy. Part of it comes with accepting that your own growing up was probably 'unusual' as well.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I wouldn't dismiss Montessori so quickly. Kids ARE allowed to interact often in Montessori (and the beauty of it is that they choose to interact if they want to but if they don't want to they don't have to either). Also, the idea of Montessori is not that pretend play is evil but because they have everything at a child's level (e.g. small chairs, child size sinks to wash dishes, clean etc) then it's not like they need to "play house" because the have the actual materials there to do it. Also, some Montessori schools are much, much more flexible when it comes to pretend play (that's where you'd have to visit the school and ask lots of questions).

DD goes to a Montessori school and it's been a good fit for her. It's not prefect (but what is?) but she has a number of friends there and does a lot of pretend play too. If she wants to do group things she does if not she's allowed to play by herself. It works very well for her because she's a pretty independent (um... stubborn) kid and wants to do things on her own terms. A school with a stricter schedule (they do have a set lunch time/nap time, though) and planned activities would be pretty disastrous for her!

ETA: DD does very well in a self-directed learning environment. Honestly, I have a hard time imagining anyone would have any success teaching her something she doesn't want to know (her teachers have said the same..). The converse is true too, if she wants to know something she'll bug you about it relentlessly until she understands it. She's so young, though, that I'm not sure how much of that is personality and how much is just being a young (er, stubborn) kid, you know what I mean?

The bolded part is not something in Montessori and might be just some strange made-up rule at that individual school. A very odd rule for that matter.

DD's school does have some pretend play activities, but again, it depends on the school. However, you wouldn't see a pretend kitchen because the children would actually be making their own food, serving it, and cleaning it up themselves so they'd be do essentially the same thing with real food instead of pretend food.

I'm not saying you have to pick Montessori but I just wanted to clear up the confusion on pretend play/playing with friends because these are common misconceptions I've seen about Montessori schools (and it could very well stem from Montessori schools that either misinterpret the idea or make up some odd rules like you're describing).

It sounds, though, that your child would like more of a play-based preschool which is completely fine too. I just didn't want you to think that all Montessori schools had a bunch of kids that never played with each other and aren't allowed to do pretend play either (if you knew DD you'd understand that couldn't be further from the truth! :D).

If you are anywhere near the south end of the Twin Cities, I've heard great reviews of a montessori school that caters to HG kids:
cyprus

There is also a good school-within-a-school on the north end of the Twin Cities that sounds great for the self-directed HG learner. It's a school-within-a-school that has kids age 5-17, ability and interst grouped, as opposed to grade levels:
Lighthouse

There is also a highly active GT homeschooling community, plus several other self-contained GT programs around the Twin Cities. I'm not telling you all of this to suggest that you should move here, but rather to point out that your chances of finding a better fit educational opportunity for your kid will increase in a major metro area. Also wanted to point out the various different types of schools that might work for very PG kid.