Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion How does a high VCI present day to day?

So DDs VCI was 142 on the WPPSI (at 4yrs 9mths). I have found myself wondering - but does this actually say anything about the quality of her speach and conversation? Does that make sense? It doesn't seem to me that any part of the WPPSI tests a child's use and comprehension of whole language. So if you have a young child with a high VCI what do you expect to see (hear!) from them day to day.

I am still struggling majorly with finding my way out of denial land...

I have twin girls both with VCI's in the 130's/98% range (can't remember specifically) who are 6 yrs old. Their speech is obviously more complex than same age peers--> both in terms of content and structure. For example, yesterday they were playing a board game with their similar aged cousins but their cousins had not played this game before so they needed to explain the game (believe me the game was simple and age appropriate for all) but the instructions from my two on the rules of the game were indecipherably to even the 8 yr old due to the complexity of the language they used. They use language like "clockwise round the circle" "forfeit your turn" "appoint a referee" " nominate your category" etc etc

I have a dd5 with vci wpssi 99th percentile, and her speech has always distinguished her. From the age of 1 she was using full sentences (not all the time, of course, but capable). By end of yr 2, she was speaking like a 4 or 5 year old. For her, anyway, her vocabulary, grammar and even the way she was able to correctly pronounce words much larger than most kids her age was pretty distinct. Also, in paragraphs rather than sentences at that point.

Most of the 5 year olds we know still have some letter sounds they are still working on, from what I can hear. They are also still very much learning the rules on things like 'I shot' instead of 'I shooted'.
I think 'L' is the only sounds she's still a bit lisp-y on, and frankly I even think that is because she's been at school and picked it up there. There are days when she sounds more like her classmates, but lately this summer she is more back to her regular speech because she's been picking up at home again.
Part of the reason I noticed her speech early on, is that our son, identified gifted in l.a., would speak in complex sentences pretty early, but I was the only one who could usually understand him. He was pretty normal with development of all the physical bits to make the various sounds.

My understanding is that VCI is a measure of 'what the child knows' and strongly associated with 'thinking power.' It's also associated with verbally expressive children who aren't generally shy or acting shy because of feeling unsafe with a particular tester.

So a really outgoing child with speech issues, who is understandable to the tester, will score very high if they are able to share what they know with the tester by talking. It isn't so much a measure of 'how verbal is this child' as a measure of 'how able is this child to show what she knows using verbal communication.'


Mumof3 - That is a very high score, indeed. There is now way to know if that represents an actual LOG, or if the LOG would have been higher except for ceiling issues. You may want to post the individual subscale scores to see if we and help guess at that. Eventually, after age 6, you might consider a WISC just to 'see how things are going.'

Sorry you are having that 'denial issue' - would achievement test help? What about working the 'mom network' to get a hold of 'end of year' tests for kindy, 1st and 2nd grade so you can see for yourself what is taught in schools? That helped me. If school is still in session the best help is to sit in classrooms and observe, both your child's current peers and age+1, age+2, age+3.
Hope that helps!

Love and More Love,

Grinity

Both of my girls had high VCI scores on the WISC at ages 7 and 8, but they present very differently. The only thing that I can say they had in common was early speech. Dd10, whose VCI scores were higher, did speak earlier -- putting two words together at 5.5 months whereas dd12 was only using single words at 6 months, but they both had pretty advanced speech as little people.

I've generally been told that high VCI correlates with school performance. If I only had my one older child, I'd believe that b/c she is a stereotypical high achiever. My youngest is a much more erratic student who really doesn't fit into a school setting well although I must temper that with the fact that she still does well (got the Presidental Academic Excellence award in 5th grade -- you need a reasonably good GPA, etc. -- is a mostly A student and did have all As on her last report card, passed the two tests -- MAPs and a 7th grade math pre-test -- required to subject accelerate in math in 6th grade, etc.). What I see, though, is more a child who has to squeeze herself into a hole she doesn't fit in in order to make that work.

I'd except high VCI to show up in different ways depending on where those strengths within VCI lie. Probably the child would have an advanced vocabulary although s/he may or may not use it regularly (my dd10 doesn't often b/c she is more interested in appearing "normal.") Probably the child would be able to understand plot lines and character motivations well when reading although s/he may or may not like to read (again, my dd10 isn't much into reading).

Grinity - subtests were:

Information 17
Vocab 17
Word Reasoning 16

She hit soft ceilings in at least two of them (she reached the end of at least two, if not all subsections without terminating but made occasional errors or gave vague or "cute" answers). One of the questions she got wrong in word reasoning she heard me talking to my mother about weeks later and first quoted the question word for word, then gave her answer (which was marked wrong) and said "And I was RIGHT" and wondered off. And from a reasoning perspective she had correctly reasoned, but had reasoned out an unexpected answer.

The WPPSI questions were so freaking easy though, it's just hard for me to understand that any 4.75 year old would not have had a similar result.

Flip side - she saw a different psychologist today about possible selective mutism (recovering from) or social anxiety and the conclusion was

a) shy but no pathology
b) very strong willed and non compliant (not oppositional or defiant, simply not a pleaser)
c) "buzzy" / "a bit ADDish" and
d) Clearly underachieving as per the results in the psychometric testing report (which the tester did not identify but instead described as "Academically, CHILD is also doing very well and her literacy and mathematical skills are equivalent to a child who is in Reception." Which is to say her literacy skills were 6 months in advance at the time of testing. Tester described that as "doing very well", today's psych described that as "significant underachievement, she should be two years in advance with that IQ". Which explains my sense of denial.

Cricket thanks for this, it was useful:

That's a relief - at least 50% of you should feel relieved and justified.

I love that book 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' by Lisa Bravo for those 'thorny' 'not teacher pleasing' kids. Of course, I still want you to get her into a 'good enough-fit' school environment.

It is difficult to believe that 'all kids' or 'most kids' wouldn't blow away the WPPSI - but that just shows how skewed our daily lifes are. Sort of reminds me of being a little kid and shopping for a birthday gift.

I helpfully pointed out to my mom that 'the package says: For ages 9-12, and my friend is only 7.'

My mom responded: "Oh those people who make the packages don't know anything! You can't believe what they say!"

So I do know where you are coming from - I come from a long line of 'denialists.'

Wink,
Grinity

Yeah I am quite relieved actually. I feel I know why she is underachieving, I see it as totally reversible - with the right school fit. And she also comes from a long line of late bloomers to boot.

Haha! I have apparently been giving wildly inappropriate puzzles to 2 year olds for some time.

Isn't it interesting how two different clinicians can have such different opinions from the same set of data? The psych who tested dd10 the second time also said that there were no concerns, no hints of 2e, and generally she was doing fine and that she was bright but nothing that far out of the ordinary. This was all despite having repeat 18s and 19s on the WISC (both times she was tested), scores ranging from 8-19, achievement scores that fluctuated all over the place, and with her generally performing like a high avg kid in school. Another psych, looking @ the same data & meeting with the same kid , said that she was seriously underachieving & dx her with ADD and anxiety.

At that age my son just loved learning, asked lots of questions, and he loved to talk about what he had learned. He didn't just want to read, he wanted to read and discuss. He saw humor in things that I never noticed and liked to share. He had a lot of confidence in his ability to speak and was not shy about doing it on stage in front of a lot of people. People thought he was older and they kept asking us where he went to school before he was old enough to go to school. Strangers would listen to him talk and then tell me he talked more like an adult. Some would tell me they thought he would be a politician when he grew up or a professor. It was fun having him around when he was a little kid and it still is now that he is 13 and taller than I am. Now his advanced vocabulary doesn't seem so unusual.

He recently had enough confidence in himself to audition for a feature film.

I still have one foot firmly planted in denial land myself. I think some gifted children prefer to drive slower despite the horsepower they have under the hood. They are like the old grannies driving under the speed limit in a big powerful car. Maybe it's fear, or maybe it's just they prefer the pace of 'normal' childhood.

Every once and a while, like during testing, they put the pedal to the metal because it's a safe and fun place to do it. Then they get these expensive speeding tickets we parents call test results.

Thanks for everyone's replies, it is very interesting to think about the various ways our kids can present. Things are looking up now, but for the two years prior to the last 6 months our whole family has had a pretty rough trot. During that time this DD, being the middle child AND the easy child, has really had very little attention or assistance. She's pretty much never had support to read or write when she asked for it at home (I was too busy vomiting or tending to a screaming baby) and preschool just don't do that sort of thing. Even us reading to her at night has been reading to her with her older sister at her (4 yrs) older sister's level. Sitting in the same room listening to a novel being read out is not really as conducive to learning to read as sitting and reading picture books and point to words as go. I feel bad about how she's been neglected academically, but life is what it is.

She has also spent the last two years at a preschool that is deeply, DEEPLY entrenched in it's play based learning pedagogy. The preschool is part of the private k-12 school she will go to, they do have lots of bright and gifted kids, a lot of high achievers and lots of good outcomes. But they certainly have a very gently gently approach to starting kids out. The children do come to their first year of formal school extremely ready to function in a classroom and with very well developed pre-literacy skills etc. But the preschool teachers would faint at the idea of taking early literacy to the point of say, actually reading. And DD knows this. The psychologist she saw yesterday said that it was extremely clear that DD believes that preschool is strictly for play and of course she won't engage in the extension work the preschool teachers now want to do with her - because preschool is about play not work! A buck short and a day late to change the rules. This is her last week though and next term she starts formal school.

She's gotten the message loud and clear at home and at preschool that she should just play and keep herself busy. And having been adaptable and sunny natured since birth she has made the most of her lot. Now we just need to gently reverse some of that.

We started working on reading and playing the piano about 10 weeks ago, when we had her tested, and in that time she has made a year or more progress with reading. Her drawing and colouring in (which have paid no attention to what so ever) has leaped dramatically ahead, though not at preschool of course. And she's happier.

The plan is to push school hard to NOT go quite so gently, gently with her at the start and not to give her the idea that school is just more play time. We'll give it six months and see how it goes. If she hits her stride then good, and school have already agreed to put her into year one after two terms of K. If school doesn't work out i guess we will be homeschooling.

The observation that she's happier should reassure you that you are on the right path. It sounds like you have a good plan in place. Well done!
Grinity

I have no idea how to describe how my son presents, besides crazy. LOL! He didn't have early speech, but he definitely leapfrogged (as my husband likes to call his development)His first word was at 13 months, "hi!" and then his second word was two days later, "exit." (He loved exit signs.) His speech exploded after that and he was speaking in clear sentences by 18 months. He has always been very easy to understand, never having any problems with pronunciation. He did go through a stuttering phase, but it was probably because his mouth couldn't keep up with his brain.

He's a talker, for sure, and does sound much older than his age. Other than that, I can't really think of anything.

He scored 147 on VCI, I am a bit confused as to what exactly this measures, it sounds like a mix of things. I didn't get his subtest scores. Still trying to decide if I should bug the psych for them, when the only use would be to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks Grinity, I think it will be ok - one way or another. And I do also feel kind of relieved to see that there is a reason she doesn't seem that out there (because she's not achievement wise).

I think you will see great results when you go at her pace!

Amber we cross posted! It is hilarious the things babies prioritize as first words! My youngest I suspect has a speach impediment, her speech is well behind her sisters' at this age but her receptive language seems like it may be in advance. But the random words she has managed to get very clear - hungry, water (not to drink but to play with), hat (LOVES hats), shoes (also loves shoes)....

Both my first two had "More" as one of their first words "More Banana" being the first phrase for DD2 (the DD this thread was about).

My DD Wisc verbal was 144 with ceilings in all subsets. I have deemed that her reasoning ability is documented in that score. It is like being in constant lawyer land with her. She takes seemingly unrelated bits of information and composes arguments or deduces complex outcomes that are right on. She loves to read, but what is difficult for the reading is her ability to read just a bit of a story and already figure out all of what is going to happen. This leads to reading more complicated (advanced) material. This is a bit problematic as that material is often not age appropriate. However, her advanced reasoning skills have led to a more global view and inclusive of more adult themes. She quite clearly is not emotionally ready to participate in those themes but her intellectual power forbids them from being "hidden" I use to read all the books that she was reading to try and stay on top of it....but that is not possible anymore and we have deals about when certain topics come up we talk about them. She was an early clear talker that when I tried to fly with her under two I had to bring her birth certificate with me to prove that she was under two. I have a second child who is showing those same reasoning skills with less ability for clear articulation and it is really defining the difference between intellectual power and body/muscle awareness. My first is very athletic, my second is no where near as talented with her body. My second at 2.8 months asked me recently on a hike. "Why are there no mosquitoes?" I said its raining and she responded, "So the rain will splash their wings and they can not fly." I am not sure whether that is an advanced statement for a two year old or not but it seems like a clear example of that reasoning that I am trying to describe. I had one that my older kiddo did but now I can't remember it...

DD#2 was an early and advanced talker, she too always had excellent diction. Even when she spoke with simple words she had an innate ability to convey exactly what she wanted to you to understand, so she had very little frustration over not being understood. People often commented how unsuaully happy she was for such a determined little child. As a baby and small toddler she was always determinedly trying to achieve something but that did not lead to nearly as many meltdowns as you would have expected.

It's when she talks about the random stuff she is thinking about that you do see what is going on in there. But she doesn't have those talks with many people. And indeed she has always had advanced gross and fine motor skills too. As you say flower, it is interesting how much harder it is to make sense of a small child who can't/won't speak but for whom that does not necessarily reflect what is or is not going on inside. My third child is quite the little puzzle at 16 months old, I have no clear sense of how she is tracking.